GWC Re-Watch Frak Party: Fragged

It’s weeksixteen of our planned off-season re-watch of the entire “re-imagined” BSG canon, and it’s time to move on to the season two episode “Fragged.” So why not join us here for the GWC online frak party? There’s room for everyone, though you’ll have to bring your own snacks…

Feel free to jump in at any point with your comments on this week’s episode as the re-watch is by definition spoiler free. We’ll be in and out, but we’ll definitely take a look at your comments before we start next week’s podcast.

See you here all week!

42 Responses to "GWC Re-Watch Frak Party: Fragged"
  1. Chuck says:

    All: I apologize for posting this a few days late. I could tell you why, but it’s just lame. My bad. I promise I’ll stay on track next week and get the Frak Party out on time.

  2. Mike P says:

    Hey, Chuck. Since I was the only one who complained , I feel I should offer my public apologies.

    I will chime in with some substantive comments later today — don’t have my notes in front of me now. 🙂

  3. Pike says:

    I actually think the delay is a good thing. It can be confusing trying to follow the different threads when posts go up for the podcast, the poll, and the frak party all at once.

  4. writch says:

    So say we all, Pike!

    The delay allowed me to focus on one htrad at a time. If you got a feed reader that posts in gobs at a time like me, it’s harder to juggle which discussion is on which thread.

    Let me just say though, the caliber of contribution in the frak-parties and pod-cast comments are just “shiney” all around; it makes the minor mental and technical juggling act well worth it.

  5. Nick says:

    I was out of town for a couple of weeks and am catching up on podcasts, finishing off #52. Still going through the threads here so I don’t know if it’s been brought up before. Going back to Kobol’s last gleaming part 2 I think I’ve found a very good argument for Head 6 being more than than a figment of Baltar’s Imagination. Six projects the opera house and shows Baltar the baby saying that the baby is coming and that you are supposed to be its guardian. This is new information that Gaius couldn’t possibly have known or even subconsciously surmised. Furthermore with Sharon being newly pregnant at this point, it would mean that head six would have to have some kind of communication with the rest of the cylons to know that the baby had been concieved and was on its way.

  6. Kappa says:

    Nick: I was thinking about that, too. If Head Six is just Baltar, Baltar has to be nuts *and* a prophet. Granted, there are a lot of folks on BSG that have visions, but having some hallucinations that are accurate and others that are just products of his own messed-up psyche would convolute things a bit much.

    As for “Fragged,” for some reason, I always forget about this episode; the others in this arc just seem to overshadow it. Still, it’s a good episode, and one that surprises me each time I see it because the details have never stuck in my head like with some other episodes. My thoughts:

    1) I still miss Billy!

    2) Before, I always thought that Baltar actually acted for the good of someone other than himself in this episode by shooting Crashdown before Crash shot Cally, but now that I listened to what Six said about what happens on Kobol not being God’s will, I think he’s still primarily acting to save his own hide. When Chief, who told Baltar to back off and let Crash run things because he was the ranking officer, even starts questioning Crash and then pulls his gun on Crash, Baltar sees that if Crash is left in control, they’re all toast, not just Cally. Also, his lie about how Crash died is self-serving because it keeps him from having to explain the what really happened and perhaps implicating himself enough that he’d have to have a court martial or other legal hearing to determine if he was justified in his actions; preserving Crash’s honor is just a fortuitous side-effect and a motivation for the Chief not to contradict Baltar’s story.

    3) I admit that I haven’t seen “Dirty Hands” yet; I was living outside the U.S. for most of the second half of Season 3, and when I got back home I discovered that I’d missed taping “Dirty Hands” and “The Woman King.” I decided to save watching those until the DVDs come out, so it’ll be like getting two bonus episodes in August to tide me over until the October mini-sodes and “Razor” in November, but I’ve listened to the podcasts about both episodes already. Anyway, even from my limited familiarity with the later episode, “Fragged” and “Dirty Hands” contain a lot of parallels. In both, Cally ends up going against the command structure and nearly gets killed for it. She never had any intention of being career military (just wanted help paying for dental school–a detail I loved in this episode), so I can understand why she would be the one who would go against orders, just as Baltar, the non-military man, also challenges the chain of command. Interestingly, in this episode, the Chief puts Baltar in his place when Baltar wants to vote on Crash’s plan; “This [the military] is not a democracy.” For those who have seen it, how does this view relate to his actions in “Dirty Hands?”

    4) What does “fragged” mean, anyway? Is it a real word, real slang, or BSG slang?

    5) Tom Zarek is one smart cookie, even all the way back here at the beginning of Season 2. He knows what Tigh will end up doing even before Tigh does (martial law), and whether he believes in Roslin’s visions or not (I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that Zarek’s not a very religious guy), he knows that Roslin as prophet (not to mention claiming to know the way to Earth–and by extension, claiming that Adama doesn’t know how to get there and never did) equals political capital in this society, so as we see in later episodes, he positions himself so as much of that capital can rub off on him as possible.

    6) Back to my pet question of the Opera House that I posted about somewhere back in “Kobol’s Last Gleaming”. We–and the characters, too–have been led pretty strongly to believe that the Opera House in everybody’s visions is the ancient Opera House on Kobol. Six says that God turned his back on Kobol because of humanity’s “false gods” and general bad behaviour. So why is everybody getting visions (which at least Six would say are from God) of a place that God turned his back on? I’m really curious if the people in the visions are operating inside the Big Plan (which I’m guessing the Cylon God, if he/she/it exists, is endorsing) that will eventually restart history and keep time running through endless cycles, or if they’re somehow trying to break both the humans and the Cylons out of the cycle, since, let’s face it, the part of the cycle we’ve seen has not been a very happy time for either side, and the idea that they all have to go through all this darkness and terror an infinite number of times and never have the opportunity to change it is really depressing. My current theory is that Roslin, Athena, Six, and whatever version of Baltar is in the Opera House in the vision are on one side, probably for maintaining the cycle, given Roslin’s insistence at playing the role of the leader, Head Six’s speech about being in harmony with creation back in “Kobol’s Last Gleaming II,” and her statement in this episode that the baby God is sending into the world (which seems to be Hera) is God reaching out to humanity to give them another shot at redemption (or another shot at getting back on track with the Big Plan, maybe?). The Final Five are on the other side, perhaps almost like fallen angels, rebels going against not only the Cylon plan (which may or may not have fallen apart by now) but the Big Plan, the one that God or the gods or the predictability of human nature or the inevitability of fate has dictated will keep everybody locked in an unending cycle of battling for supremacy. And somehow, Hera or something that Hera represents is the key that will decide which way history tips. Any thoughts?

    I’ve got one more point, but that’s more than enough typing for right now. Happy re-watching, all!

  7. Chuck says:

    Kappa: Fragged is a term coined in Vietnam for guys using a frag grenade to “accidentally” kill their leader. You can see the application in this episode, though it’s pretty crazy who actually does it, yeah?

  8. Timbuck says:

    Nice history lesson Chuck. I’m a history buff. “Hardcore History” by Dan Carlin is an excellent podcast!!!

    Fragged=the next to last scene in “Platoon”. Charlie Sheen vs Tom Berenger. Awesome movie. Berenger would make a great Cylon.

    LATE POST of the Frak Party: Not a bad thing. I get confused too and keep jumping back and forth.

    Another episode where we see how much Starbuck kicks ass and how Baltar is a wuss. I did like his confrontation w Callie in the hallway. Or was that in Farm? I’m one ahead.

    Crashdown’s plan to attack the Cylon missile battery was as effective as Han Solo chasing all those Stormtroopers down the Death Star hall just after the trash compactor scene. Just scream, run and fire. Except Stormtroopers didnt have mini-Gatling guns for arms. Of course, the L-T didnt have a Wookie!

  9. Mike P says:

    I have to agree with Timbuck and Pike, on reflection. Maybe the frak party should always be delayed?

    Thanks for clarifying the episode title, Chuck. I assumed the BSG cursing hadn’t gotten cleared up yet and it was supposed to be “Frakked.” Shows what I (don’t) know.

    Kappa, thanks for expounding on Baltar’s motives. That cleared up a lot for me. I think it all makes sense, although Tyrol assents to Baltar’s statement, presumably not for the doctor’s self-centered motives, but because, at some level, he thinks Crashdown did the best he could, and maybe — in the BSGverse as in real life — that often is heroism enough.

    Man, Ellen is all Lady Macbeth in this episode… beween her and the booze, Tigh doesn’t have a chance! It is interesting to see some more thematic doublings in this episode. I think Tigh’s reliance on drink and Roslin’s reliance on the camalla are being pretty clearly juxtaposed: neither of them can do their job at this point without “substances.” And I think they both come off looking bad for that. Of course, Roslin is lucky because — everybody together now — in BSG, religion is reality. I was actually kind of surprised to hear her say as much in the brig scene at the end — I had forgotten that she did.

    Also, it’s interesting to hear Chief tell Baltar on Kobol, “This is not a democracy!” while, back on Galactica, Zarek and the Quorum are insisting to Tigh, “This is still a democracy!” Both Tyrol and Tigh, in a sense, come down on the side of setting aside democracy for the emergency situation (although, of course, the military never is a democracy, while civilian society, in BSG and the USA et al Western countries, is…). The writers are pushing us to examine when, if ever, blind obedience is required. (And yet, of course, Tyrol is pushing for destroying that dish right up until the very end.)

    Did the whole Cylon construction of the DRADIS dish remind anyone else of “Star Trek: First Contact”? I kept waiting for Tyrol to shout, “Assimilate this!” when he’s going ballistic at the end…

    Minor fanboyish trivial niggles to follow:

    1) In “Scattered,” isn’t it stated that it will take Doc Cottle 10 minutes to get to Galactica? And yet all the events of “Valley of Darkness” intervened between then and “Fragged”? Did I miss some order for Cottle’s transport to stay away when the Cylons were invading?

    2) Who is the baby-faced guy acting as Tigh’s XO, and did we meet him prior to “Scattered”? Do we ever see him again?

    3) Is that a bedpan that Cottle extinguishes his cigarette in when he enters the sickbay?

    Ok, we now return you to the deeper discussion for which the Watercooler is justly praised. 🙂

  10. adoracion says:

    hey MikeP, i think i got trivial niggle answers (anyone feel free to correct and/or elaborate):

    1) in “scattered” Doc was 10 mins away, but then the bulletheads boarded the Galactica–everyone was told to back off.

    2) i think the “baby-faced guy” you’re talking about is Kelly. he DEFINITELY comes back in season 3, as a cylon-hater (i think he tried to kill Sharon?).

    3) yeah. Doc is madd ghetto. LOL!

  11. Timbuck says:

    Kelly was the one who whacked Baltar’s lawyer.

    The Doc rules! Cant find a Dr like him in an HMO.

    In The Farm: if you saw “Misery” you can relate to how Starbuck escapes. If you missed that movie, or book, check it out!

    Mike P said:
    Did the whole Cylon construction of the DRADIS dish remind anyone else of “Star Trek: First Contact”? I kept waiting for Tyrol to shout, “Assimilate this!” when he’s going ballistic at the end…

    How true is that! Awesome observation. Those Philly folk are kinda smart…

  12. Jim says:

    Four Emmy Nominations for BSG:

    Outstanding Directing For A Drama Series
    Battlestar Galactica • Exodus, Part 2 • Sci Fi Channel • R+D TV in association with NBC Universal Television Studio
    Felix Alcala, Director

    Outstanding Sound Editing For A Series
    Battlestar Galactica • Exodus, Part 2 • Sci Fi Channel • R+D TV in association with NBC Universal Television Studio
    Michael Baber, Music Editor
    Vince Balunas, Sound Editor
    Daniel Colman, Sound Editor
    Jack Levy, Supervising Sound Editor
    Doug Madick, Foley Artist
    Rick Partlow, Foley Artist

    Outstanding Special Visual Effects For A Series
    Battlestar Galactica • Exodus, Part 2 • Sci Fi Channel • R+D TV in association with NBC Universal Television Studio
    Tom Archer, Lead Compositor
    Brenda Campbell, Lead Compositor
    Doug Drexler, CG Supervisor
    Michael Gibson, Senior VFX Coordinator
    Jeremy Hoey, Lead Matte Painter
    Gary Hutzel, VFX Supervisor
    Andrew Karr, CGI Supervisor
    Alec McClymont, Lead CGI Artist/ Animator
    Adam Mojo, CGI Sequence Designer

    Outstanding Writing For A Drama Series
    Battlestar Galactica • Occupation/Precipice • Sci Fi Channel • R+D TV in association with NBC Universal Television Studio
    Ronald D, Written by

    Jim

  13. Craig says:

    4 Emmy nominations, not before time ! Lets hope they turn into awards. If they had received 4 nominations in season 2, would we be looking at season 4 as the final season do you think ?

  14. Nick says:

    In this episode I had always thought that Baltar shot Crashdown entirely out of self-preservation and Kappa has nailed it as far as Baltar’s motivations. Doesn’t the chief at some point in season 3 even threaten to blackmail Baltar, threatening to tell everybody he murdered Crashdown?

    Six’s statements to Baltar about what happens on Kobol not being god’s will has always struck me as having a story behind it which is a major piece of the “Grand story being retold over and over throughout eternity” I’ve always assumed it had something to do with the catasrophy which caused the original 13 colonies to flee Kobol in the first place.

  15. 13th Cylon says:

    Well I was just about to post the great Emmy news. Ol’ One Eye got snubbed, but 4 is still really great for a series that’s been overlooked so far.

    I’m gonna call it- We’ve got the one for visual effects in the bag. Absolutely no way those others hold a candle to Galactica free falling and jumping at the last second.

  16. Phoenix says:

    13th-I hope you are right. Because if Grey’s Anatomy somehow wins for visual effects, I’ll be pretty pissed.

  17. Jim says:

    Jim

    Might be able to win this one , The Sopranos is competing against itself with three entries, so it might be BSG vs LOST in this category.

    Outstanding Writing For A Drama Series
    Battlestar Galactica • Occupation/Precipice • Sci Fi Channel • R+D TV in association with NBC Universal Television Studio
    Ronald D, Written by
    Lost • Through The Looking Glass • ABC • ABC Studios
    Carlton Cuse, Written by
    Damon Lindelof, Written by
    The Sopranos • Kennedy And Heidi • HBO • Chase Films and Brad Grey Television in association with HBO Entertainment
    David Chase, Writer
    Matthew Weiner, Writer
    The Sopranos • The Second Coming • HBO • Chase Films and Brad Grey Television in association with HBO Entertainment
    Terence Winter, Writer
    The Sopranos • Made In America • HBO • Chase Films and Brad Grey Television in association with HBO Entertainment
    David Chase, Writer

    Jim

  18. Melissa (aka the Fair Melissa) says:

    Doc Cottle is by far my favorite character in Season 2. I love the fact that he smokes unapologetically and appears never to be conflicted about anything. So nice to see “Dutch” (for those of you old enough to remember “Soap”) still kicking.

  19. Radio Picon says:

    I have very little of importance to say about this episode, but I will say these 3 things… 🙂

    1. The idea that the Cylons had to build a dradis dish in order to use their ship-to-ship missiles on the rescue party is ridiculous. Those missiles should be able to both maneuver and guide themselves. Plus, they would have the ability to recognize Colonial craft and be programmed to kill, kill, kill! Cylon technology is, after all, supposed to be more advanced that the Colonials’ which is at least 100 years ahead of us right now. This goes right along with other mistakes RDM made with the Cylons. You shouldn’t be able to kill a centurion with a shot to the head…those things would be more efficient fighting machines if they had redundant processors and sensors all over. Also, as the GWC gang has mentioned before, how does a centurion usually miss when it fires? It’s kind of like RDM forgot that the whole idea of developing machines is to increase efficiency. Or maybe he just thought these weaknesses made better TV.

    2. did you know that “kamala” is one of the Sanskrit words for lotus? The other is “padma” I think. It is spelled differently than the BSG herb, but I wouldn’t be surprised if gave them the idea for the name.

    3. Once upon a time, in the 1980s, Doc Cottle guest-starred on “The Golden Girls” as Blanche’s handsome love interest. And he actually was kind of handsome back then. He’s a little scary now though.

  20. 13th Cylon says:

    Speaking of Rue McClannahan (of Golden Girls fame as Blanche), I watched a movie last night that she starred in called “Hollywood After Dark”. It’s got commentary by “The Film Crew” which is comprised of Mike Nelson, Bill Corbett, and Kevin Murphy. I know there’s a lot of MST3K fans here, so you guys might want to check them out. They’re cranking a few of them out now.

    filmcrewonline.com

  21. Mike P says:

    Nick — Does Baltar really “murder” Crashdown when, at the point that Baltar pulls his trigger, Crashdown is a second away from pulling *his* on Cally? I am not disputing your memory of later events — just wondering if it should be called “murder” (regardless of who first called it that).

  22. Stroogie says:

    Oh geez, can you imagine if RDM wins an Emmy over Sopranos? He’ll craaaap himself. (love ya, RDM)

  23. master1228 says:

    I love looking back now and seeing the irony in Tigh’s command of the fleet with Adama out of commission. You’ve got a Tylon in control (well, control is debatable) of the entire fleet. He doesn’t want the job and KNOWS he’s frakking up (he tells the unconscious Adama how he’s really screwed things up for Adama once he wakes up).

    With all this talk about the Razor clips hitting the net, I keep wondering what would have happened if Admiral Roe’s Battlestar had happened on the fleet during Tigh’s command, with Martial Law, the President in the Brig and the VP stranded on a planet a hyperspace jump away!

    Remember all those close call situation between Adama and Roe? Any one of those could have blown past breaking point with a drunk Tigh in command and sly slippery Ellen whispering sweet poison in his ear.

    On the planet Kobol, there was one scene, where Baltar and Head Six are talking (I don’t remember exactly which one) and Head Six calls out to Baltar and genuinely looks concerned for him. Again, sorry for not remembering the exact scene, but it was yet another indication for me that she is way more special than a crazy voice in his head or a manifestation of his own consciousness.

    Oh and the deleted scene with Baltar on Kobol going from sex with Head Six to finding that he was laying on a bed of human skulls was pretty messed up, that alone ameliorates him a bit in my book, that buys him some leeway from me for a while.

  24. Mike P says:

    The master speaks : “she [Head Six] is way more special than a crazy voice in his head or a manifestation of his own consciousness”

    Yeah, good call — I think you might mean the scene near the end where she tells Baltar, “I’ll be your conscience.” Is she taking on this role as something new? That intrigued me, too.

  25. Andy L says:

    I have been lurking for quite a while, but feel that I might be able to add to the conversation. What kind of officer did Crashdown turn out to be?

    First, Crashdown is a flight officer. We know that we have a seperation of force elements, ie, flyers and marines. So we have to wonder exactly how much experience a flight officer would have with ground combat. Of course, we haven’t seen any marine officers, that I can recall, so we don’t know if they actually exist. But it does call into question whether Crashdown was adequately trained to lead a ground assault element. Let’s face it… most Naval aviators and RIOs aren’t trained in ground combat. They are trained in how to AVOID ground combat, after they are shot down.

    What type of officer was Crashdown? He was a lousy one. He blew serious chunks as an officer. He was indecisive and unsure of his actions, and he communicated his insecurity this to his people. Not good. He had an experienced NCO, Chief Tyrol, who was offering sound advice. Crashdown refused to take that advice, not because he thought the advice to be faulty, but because it came from an NCO, not an officer. An officer is not obligated to implement the advice of his subordinates, but he bloody well better take it under serious advisement. Your NCOs have a lot more experience than you do, generally. In the Army, the LT may be “in command” of the unit, but the senior sergeant is the one “in charge,” and a smart officer won’t mess with that situation and will learn from it.

    Was Baltar guilty of murder for shooting Crashdown? Eh. Actually, the better question is was Crashdown justified pulling his weapon on Cally? We do not know what Colonial military law is. However, under our present day Uniform Code of Military Justice, he would not have been justified in shooting her. He would have been perfectly justified in placing her under arrest, and then filing charges against her for cowardice in the face of the enemy, which is a capital charge. But shooting her in the field? Don’t think so. Therefore, Crashdown wasn’t justified in his threat to shoot Cally, and that means that Baltar was justified in his actions.

    Just my tuppence.

  26. Dave says:

    Whats poppin yo…

    The chief also had his gun on Crash – I’m thinking that if it wasn’t Baltar who pulled the trigger, it would have been the Chief. Maybe Baltar just beat him to the punch, for whatever personal reasons he may have had.

    Elbows up, side to side

    Dave

  27. Nick says:

    Mike P- Legally what Baltar did may have been considered murder. I’m unsure about their legal system but in ours I don’t believe the Vice President has the atuthority to give the millitary orders. (somebody more knowledgable help me out here) If this is the case then you have a civilian killing the ranking officer of a military mission during a time of war.

    In my last post I personally wasn’t calling it murder, I was refering to later when actually it is Cali that threatens to blackmail him. If his actions were legal and justified then she wouldn’t have anything to blackmail him with.

    Andy L- As far as our Uniform Code of Military Justice goes you are not obligated to follow an illegal order, however I really don’t have any idea what it says about your obligation to follow ill-advised orders, and if you refuse to follow them is it considered insurrection? Desertion? Or something of the kind. Do legal “Battlefield Executions” exist during a time of war for desertion or insurrection? Or is that just a hollywood thing?

  28. Leon Kensington says:

    Being as that the military and government seem to be completely separate entities in BSG, I think it would be considered murder. We know that Roslin has no control over the military (and not because she is weak) and so I would assume that it is the same with Baltar.

  29. Pike says:

    Regardless of whether Baltar was technically in the right or not, he saved Cally’s life. REALLY bad form for her to throw that in his face.

  30. Jeff S says:

    Just thought I’d help clear up some questions…

    1. The reason for the DRADIS dish is because those missile needed to know where to go. Yes they had a guidance system, but something needs to guide them. When you see those cool pics on CNN of bombs flying through a front door what they don’t show you is a TACP guy on the ground pointing a targeting laser at it.

    2. Chief couldn’t have been more correct when he said it wasn’t a democracy. Its a chain of command. The military defends and supports the democracy, it can’t function as one.

    Some great discussion in this thread. Let’s keep it going!

  31. Andy L says:

    Nick, under the UCMJ, you are not obligated to follow an illegal order. However, the onus for proving that order illegal rests with the individual disobeying. Articles 90, 91, and 92 of the UCMJ define this. And just because an order will lead to high casualties, that does not in and of itself make it illegal. Members of the military may be obligated to expend their lives to ensure the success of the mission. It isn’t pretty, but that is a fact in any war. People die, and officers give the orders that cause those people to die. The mission comes first, personal considerations come after.

    Therefore, Crashdown’s orders, while not the soundest tactical decisions, would appear to be legal insofar as they would be legally binding orders from a commissioned officer to an enlisted person. The assumption in these cases is always that the officer knows what he is doing. As can be seen here, the officer can be a poltroon who will get good soldiers killed. Here, it is conceivable (although very unlikely) that charges similar to article 99 sec 3, “(3) through disobedience, neglect, or intentional misconduct endangers the safety of any such command, unit, place, or military property;” (emphasis on the neglect) could be brought, but that would have to be after the fact. And would be a right bugger to prove.

    As for battlefield executions, not under the UCMJ article 52 which limits the death penalty as a sentence to a general court martial and article 55 which clearly prohibits cruel and unusual punishments (applied by the courts-martial to summary executions as well). Under the old Articles of War, replaced by the UCMJ in 1951, an officer or NCO could use lethal force to prevent “pusillanimous conduct in the face of the enemy.” However, under the UCMJ, there is no provision for such conduct. Therefore, were we to apply the UCMJ to the world of Galactica (tenuous, but Ron Moore does borrow extensively from modern military usages), Crashdown would not have been justified in shooting Cally. He would have been intent upon committing murder, and the use of that force necessary to resolve the situation would be legal. Therefore, Baltar did not commit murder. He used lethal force to prevent a murder, resulting in a justifiable homicide, as Crashdown would have been charged with violation of article 118, murder.

    That is, IF we apply the UCMJ to the world of Galactica. Interesting ideas though! 🙂

  32. EnoNomi says:

    Man, I’m sooo far behind on the rewatch (because I have to wait for my disks on Netflix.) But I just want you guys and gal to know I love it when you get “punchy” on your podcasts. I’m constantly getting weird looks at work from laughing out loud.

    I hope you guys have a meetup in Phoenix sometime.

  33. Radio Picon says:

    Jeff S notes: 1. The reason for the DRADIS dish is because those missile needed to know where to go. Yes they had a guidance system, but something needs to guide them.

    I agree, if we are talking modern warfare in 2007. But I think this is too anachronistic for the Cylons’ level of technology. If a Centurion knows the target then it should be able to easily interface with the missile instead of going the long way around. And the missile would have all the dradis and enough AI to do its job. But again, sometimes maybe stuff like this just makes for better TV.

    I think I would’ve had to kill Crashdown too, or at least wound him to protect Callie (even though my dislike of Callie is only rivaled by my dislike of Tigh!)

  34. Melissa (aka the Fair Melissa) says:

    I know this really doesn’t go here, but I had to share with the group – I saw a car today that I have never seen before. A Buick Apollo. It was in pretty bad shape – which leads me to believe it is the Fat Lee model year.

  35. Stroogie says:

    Andy L — Welcome! That’s an impressive chunk of military legal knowledge you’ve got there. Where do/did you serve?

    I’m no Baltar defender, but I support his capping Crashdown. His motives may have been conflicted–aren’t they always?–but he saved the whole group from a leader who’d been losing his grip from the word go. Crashdown was acting on desperation, anger, and weakness; nothing justified his threat to shoot Cally for disobedience.

    But here’s a question that’s been bothering me: Two years later, Adama threatens to shoot Cally when the deckhands go on strike. Do we defend that action? I personally thought Adama had a point–a civilian strike is one thing, but a strike by military personnel is pretty much treason. The Galactica is not a democracy. But then, that’s what Crashdown said.

    P.S. Melissa the Fair–Fat Lee model! Heh, heh, heh…Speaking of cars, while watching “Valley of Darkness”, I was wondering what kind of car Starbuck drove. I thought it was a Hummer, but I’d never seen one with the back of the roof pulled back to make it look like a pickup truck before. That very day, driving to work, I saw a Hummer that looked just like Starbuck’s, roof pulled back and everything. But without the Delphi license plate. Cosmic…

  36. 13th Cylon says:

    I find the extreme amount of smoke/fog in the scene where they’re rescued to be very amusing. A little bit on the over kill.

  37. Andy L says:

    Thanks, Stroogie. I did my time in the US Army in the mid-1980s after college.

    As to whether or not Adama would have been justified in executing Cally in Dirty Hands… and my quaffling answer is… it depends.

    Was Cain justified in trying and sentencing the Chief and Helo to death for the murder of Lt Thorne? According to her, under Colonial law, acting as a flag officer on detached duty during a time of war (very specific circumstances), she was “…well within her rights.” If she was correct, Adama, as an admiral of the Colonial Fleet (under the same circumstances) would presumably have the same authority to convene a summary court martial and convict Cally of whatever capital crime he felt her guilty of. A summary court, in this instance, would consist of the flag officer only.

    A flag officer (admiral/general rank) has fairly broad powers under our UCMJ. They cannot, however, invoke the death sentence as the sentence of a summary court. The death penalty is reserved to a general court martial, with a jury of those of your rank or higher.

    What may have happened is that RDM may have taken things from the old Manual of Courts Martial from 1942. The naval version was known as “The Rocks and Shoals.” These regulations, authorized under the Articles of War, did allow for the summary court and execution of a crew member by the captain of his vessel during extraordianry conditions. I am at work now, and don’t have my copy handy, but I will look it up when I get home and see exactly what the conditions were.

    We won’t get into the utter hypocrisy of Adama’s move to threaten the execution of Cally for mutiny, while the crimes of so many others went unpunished… Helo comes to mind immediately. You are either an officer, and apply your authority even handedly, or you end up going to one extreme or the other, soft touch or martinet, as your mood strikes you. The circumstances are to blame for a good deal of the problems, but Adama himself acknowledged his problem in Unfinished Business. But now I’m getting ahead of the rewatch, so I’ll shut up. 🙂

  38. Timbuck says:

    Melissa–a Buick Apollo? Was it a “phat” ride?? Oh the puns…

    I never pictured Apollo in a Buick. More like a Volvo guy. SSM.

  39. Melissa (aka the Fair Melissa) says:

    Timbuck – if by “phat” you mean pretty heinous and terrifying, then yes, yes it was. A Volvo, huh? Don’t you remember the Volvo advertising campaign in the movie “Crazy People”? “They’re boxy, but they’re good”. Hmmmm…. I’m sensing a trend here.

  40. Nick says:

    Andy L – Thanks for the info. Great posts!

  41. Audra says:

    Welcome to the Watercooler, Jim, Craig, Andy L, Jeff S., and EnoNomi!

    EnoNomi, I think I’ve seen you here before but never gave you the formal welcome. 😉

  42. Jeff S says:

    Picon Radio said – I agree, if we are talking modern warfare in 2007

    Come on bro, they’re using bullets. While the colonials have seemed to mastered space travel, everything else is on par with what we’re using today.

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