July 8, 2007

GWC Podcast #53

“Scattered” tells us a lot about Tigh, doesn’t it? Highlights: We dissect the aftermath of Sharon’s penultimate season one action, wonder aloud about Adama and Tigh’s backstory, analyze the causes and effects of Crashdown’s leadership deficiencies — with a hefty qualifier thatno one knows how they’ll react in combat –make a prediction about Athena’s future, debate how much evidence Baltar’s decision to go to Kobol gives us about Six’s nature, reel at Audra’s incredible, Socinus-recognizing memory, listen to a caller and Chuck expound in detail upon the subject of cable vs. hydraulic vs. fly-by-wire in terms of Viper pedal pressure and Starbuck’s growth as an officer, question the existance of Chuck’s “good” twin (and Sean’s half-good twin), waste a little time talking Transformers, and finally lose it at the end tearing off on a Halo and Venture Brothers rant. Hey — sometimes we can’t help it. Enjoy.

73 Responses to "GWC Podcast #53"
  1. FleetRN says:

    I haven’t listened to the ‘cast yet – I just got back from taking the kids to see Transformers. OMG! What is that JJAbrams/Bad Robot thing? The net is all atwitter! I’m betting against Godzilla in favor of something more shocking. Now, to the iPod!

  2. Pike says:

    OK, you’ve convinced me. I’m going to see Transformers now. I’m a bit older than Chuck, I think, and I never latched on to the cartoon, but this sounds cool.

    According to RDM, they both mustered out after the first Cylon war, then later joined back up. That’s why I was suprised that Roslin later gave Adama an award for ‘forty years service.’

    Tigh Chi, LMAO.

    “The Train Job” was actually another pilot. Firefly was sort of in a similar situation as Star Trek, where the network didn’t like the original pilot (The Cage) and they came up with a different one.

    FleetRN, scuttlebut is that it’s a giant-monster movie told as if reconstructed from amature video. Sort of “Godzilla on youtube.” It sounds interesting.

  3. Pike says:

    Also, the movie is called “Cloverfield” and the trailer is part of a viral marketing campaign. Trekmovie has a round-up post of the bits and pieces from all over:

  4. The Alpaca Herder says:

    For once I kicked back and wasn’t sitting down taking notes. Of course…then again…I had some video transcoding and had to worry about that. This was an excellent podcast by and large.

    And yeah…back to work tomorrow!

  5. Luc says:

    Yeah, I heard about 30 mins of the podcast and you guys have managed to convince me to check out Transformers, which I had no intention of seeing. Since we share similare tastes (BSG, Red Dwarf, Futurame) maybe it will be my cup of tea.


  6. The Alpaca Herder says:

    When I was updating some file archives I noticed the young lady who plays Cally also guest starred on the vodcast known as Tiki Bar TV. She’s apparently not as little as she seems to look on BSG. She also has quite a mouth.

  7. Pike says:

    Alpaca, what episode? Tikibar is one of those podcasts that I never ‘got.’

    Cally, OTOH…

  8. Timbuck says:

    I had zero background on Transformers and really loved the movie. That should put to rest antone who didn’t feel “educated” enough about them to see the movie.

    Action-packed is an understatement. Megan Fox is hotter than 6 IMHO.

  9. ShadowGem says:

    Wow did you guys go off topic, but it was cool. If you can manage to get in Daria (awesomeness, Firefly, Animal House (which I didn’t get, coz I haven’t seen it, shame on me) Transformers, and many other references then you’re busy. If there like a pop culture reference limit you have to reach? 🙂
    Cally’s always been my hero, ever since she bit some guys ear off and threatened to do more, top of my books.
    Audra, even I who haven’t seen Star Wars since I was in primary school know about Alderan, but that’s because when I was younger Princess Leia was also my hero and I knew everything about her.
    I had no desire to see Transformers before this, but you know what, maybe I just might go and see it now, it sounds cool.

  10. AKRon says:

    Hey guys!

    After listening to the latest podcast, I think you should watch the deleted scenes from Scattered. I don’t know if the deleted scenes are considered “canon,” but they are certainly close to it. Anyway, the deleted scenes are about 16 minutes or so and are mostly flashback scenes with Tigh and Adama. They are obviously originally designed to relate to the audience information about their previous relationship and Tigh’s motiviations as he makes such difficult choices in “Scattered.”

    I don’t know about anyone else, but you can really see how Tigh looks up to Adama and admires him. Adama has really been someone has tried to model and live up to and I it makes their relationship somehow more strong than just close friends. Adama really acts as Tigh’s redeemer–constantly encouraging him to be a better man. My question is why? Is he just that kind of guy or is he protecting Saul for another reason?

  11. AKRon says:

    sry bout the poor grammar: more strong = stronger

  12. The Alpaca Herder says:

    Pike — Tiki Bar episodes Space Cadet and Space Cadet part 2 feature the actress who portrays Cally on BSG. The references to “frak” and Johnny Johnny mentioning Vipers kinda ensures people know who she is. Those episodes are 17 and 19 and can be downloaded via FeedBurner. I must caution that the content there is rather not safe for work and is most definitely not safe for BoxeyTheBoxed.

    AKRon — As to whether or not deleted scenes are accepted within canon I can only say that such is questionable. In Season 2.5 there are some deleted scenes that diverge from the way the story ended up going. That would make such non-canonical. Season 2.0 is where such gets messy absent any pronouncement from RDM although as has been noted on the podcast…now is probably a good time to question what RDM says and what if means, if anything.

  13. Armando says:

    As usual, I’m late on listening to the podcast. Sorry. I just can’t believe that I have yet to watch the deleted scenes from “Scattered” even though I’ve owned that particular DVD set since it came out. Now, of course, I’ll have to run and watch them (and the only reason I don’t run right now and watch them is that my in-laws are visiting and I don’t want to appear lazy, so I need to get some work done this morning. heh-heh). Thanks, AKRon!

    As to Transformers, I’ve been hearing good geek-out things about this movie, although being a Michael Bay film, I am still planning on avoiding it like the plague. I mean, the man made Armageddon, The Rock, Con Air and Pearl Harbor, for Pete’s sake! His films are a crime against humanity!

    Then again, I’m something of a snob (at least that’s what my wife says).

  14. Armando says:

    D’oh! I should’ve added that even with that track record, the thought of giant transforming CGI robots duking it out on the big screen makes me curious enough to want to watch it, even though I outgrew my love for the original TV show a looooooong time ago (I’m probably closer in age to Sean than Chuck, so I caught Transformers just before adolescence. Unlike many people who did, though, and unlike with Star Wars for me, the story lost its appeal with me after a while). So…maybe I’ll “red box” it for a buck when it comes out on video.

  15. TonyMI says:

    Quick one about the thruster pedal and Starbuck’s leg:

    If your leg weighs approx 50lbs and you are pushing on the pedal to accelerate to approx 10g’s, your leg will weigh 500lbs plus the weight/resistance of the pedal.

  16. Cavatar says:

    Great Podcast as always guys…to the talk of Adama and Tigh when they left and re-entered the fleet; I believe that both of them were likely furloughed when the war ended. Much like our service men that were furloughed at the end of World War II, due to not needing to keep such a large military; thousands of officers and men were basically sent home in a form of down sizing.

    I really don’t think Adama and Tigh were that old when we see them in the flashbacks. Remember there is only 40 or so years between the two wars. I also don’t think Adama was that old in the first war given that he was a Captain when he got out of the service. That grade is difficult achievement in peace time, but in a time of war it is easier to make for oblivious reasons, especially fighter pilots (although we know from one of the flashbacks (but it might be one of the deleted ones though) that Tigh did not start out as an officer). Anyways, Tigh makes the remark that Adama would be the oldest Captain in the fleet, so maybe they would have been in there 30’s or so.

  17. Chuck says:

    Armando: “I mean, the man made Armageddon, The Rock, Con Air and Pearl Harbor, for Pete’s sake! His films are a crime against humanity!” Ouch! If you went to any of these expecting Gone With The Wind or The English Patient, I’d imagine you left wanting. I thought The Rock was a great time, and I even got a kick out of Con Air and Armageddon. Even Pearl Harbor was worth the price of admission just for the 20-minute-long “money shot” of the invasion.  (BTW: I enjoyed GWTW and TEP as well, but for different reasons.)

    I think a lot of the griping I’ve heard about Transformers comes from the same source: people who expected something other than Transformers. As I said in the podcast, I’m not Transformers expert. (Sean is.) But it is, after all, a kids show. There are moments during the movie where the plot bends a bit to involve Sam more directly. I expected this; there’s nothing more fun for kids than to be involved in the movie through their surrogate. So I’m fine with it. And I’m fine with the stilted Transformer dialogue.

    Dave: “I’m Optimus Prime b*tches.” How ’bout the “bee-otch” bee hanging from Bumblebee’s rear-view? And, of course, my favorite line of the movie, “Meet my friend, Optimus Prime.”

    The bottom line: if you don’t think you’ll enjoy a simple almost-kids’ movie about good alien robots kicking butt and transforming into sweet rides, you probably won’t. It’s ok — not everyone’s into robots, cars, big trucks, and airplanes. But if you’re one of the kids who was — and you’re willing to relax, suspend disbelief, and enjoy — you’ll get a kick out of it. I did.

  18. Armando says:

    Well, Chuck, you might be surprised to hear that I am probably among the handful of people who thinks Gone with the Wind is an overrated piece of overblown crapola. All right, all right: crapola is not right, since it’s an example of virtuoso filmmaking technique. I just don’t care much for the story. I’m willing to admit to that. What bothers me about Michael Bay is not so much what I expect (I don’t expect much more than a 2 hour long trailer) but, rather, what you get. I simply don’t like his movies. They’re overblown and pound you over the head with whatever they’re trying to say/sell/whatever.

    Now, I have to admit, I did enjoy The Rock when I first saw it. I wouldn’t see it again, but I did enjoy it. And I’m still curious about Transformers because, well, it’s got giant fighting robots and I’m a sucker for giant fighting robots. And no one, but no one, is going to confuse this movie for a work of art. So there you go. Like I said, I’ll probably rent it when it comes out on video. These days a movie has to promise me a pretty special time for me to want to go spend upwards of 15 bucks to see it. We recently splurged on “Ratatouie” since it looked really charming and Pixar does great work (and it was…and the little one enjoyed the frak out of it) and I’ll probably splurge on the Simpsons movie next week because, well, I’ve loved that show for a long time (even though I haven’t watched it with any regularity in a couple of years now).

  19. Chuck says:


    I guess it bothers me a little bit when you say, “…no one, but no one, is going to mistake this movie for a work of art.” That’s a lot different than “I don’t like it,” or even “I don’t like that kind of art.” It’s not a commentary on your enjoyment; it’s an attack on the work itself and on those who do enjoy it.

    I should admit up front — and Audra and Sean can attest to this — that I’m a bit oversensitive to this subject. It’s, shall we say, one of my buttons. Specifically: work need not be complex — or appeal to any specific group of “respected” people — to qualify as “art.”

    Having seen so many reasonable, enjoyable posts from you on the site, I’ll assume it was an unintentional attack. Maybe if I explain my sensitivity to the subject, it’ll help resolve the issue. My sensitivity comes from spending a lot of time with people who abhor anything “popular.”

    For example, I love strange music. As a member of Phi Mu Alpha in college, I had to participate in yearly recitals. My freshman year, I decided to perform “4:33” by my brilliant namesake John Cage. It went just as you’d imagine: a bit of caughing at first, some laughing around the second movement, and finally stunned silence through most of the third. I caught crap from most of the brothers because they assumed I selected the piece because it didn’t require rehearsal. Granted, that was a side benefit — though almost entirely offset by the work required to keep my selection secret. But I selected it because I love the concept of audience as instrument. How cool is that?

    The problem came from the fact that I enjoy other kinds of music, too. I was always on the outs with everyone — the pop crowd ’cause I was into experimental, and the experimental crowd because I was into “that pop crap.” Both groups passed judgement on the quality of the art based solely on their enjoyment of it. Not surprisingly, they reacted pretty much the same way about all art: movies, theater, sculpture — you name it.

    It got so old that it’s limited by ability to deal with those who consider art only that which they personally enjoy. For example: I’m not a big country music fan. I enjoy some of it, but on the whole I’m not a fan. I certainly wouldn’t label it “crap,” though, simply because it’s not my taste. I respect it even when I don’t necessarily enjoy it. Calling it “crap” — just like calling a tightly-cut, heavily-stylized action movie “a two-hour trailer” — disrespects those who put years of their lives into it, and disrespects those of us who enjoy it as well.

    But the ultimate disrespect is claiming that it’s not “art.” Ouch!

  20. Armando says:

    Dude, Chuck: I’m so sorry! I did not intend to attack anything at all. Mostly I intended my comments re: Transformers (which, by the way, now that I’ve heard the first few minutes of this week’s cast you’ve got me wanting to see. Thanks a lot!) as an explanation as to why I’m a bit nervous about seeing it. Sounds to me from what I’ve heard, that I’d actually enjoy it for what it is: a fun popcorn movie with cool fx.

    I do, however, COMPLETELY understand your sensitivity. I’d have to admit that, while in college, I would’ve probably had the same reaction as your “experimental” friends to your interest in pop music. This is something I’ve been slowly growing out of since, well, I love a lot of pop music, particularly The Beatles (on whom I’m even teaching a course next year!). I also tend to be rather opinionated (me? NAH!) and don’t always express my opinions in the most sensitive manner. Please, PLEASE don’t think I’m trying to attack you or your tastes particularly since I think we have very similar tastes in general.

    And by the way: way cool on performing 4’33”. I’ve done this piece only in the context of music appreciation courses I’ve taught in order to explain exactly what Cage had in mind, which you put your finger on beautifully. Most people think it’s a great big joke, but it’s far from it.

    As to what is art: I think we’ve had this conversation. Actually, I’m reminded of your story a couple podcasts back about the painting with the bottle cap on it. What was it that your friend said? That it might be art but he wouldn’t pay for it (I know it was waaaaay more subtle and funnier than that, though). I think we all have to make our decisions as to what is valuable to us as consumers of art. In that sense, we all label what constitutes art or not. As a professional artist I tend to think about these distinctions a lot. Trust me, though, when I tell you that it is not my intention to offend you or anyone.

    Now, I hope you don’t mind if I go sit in sackcloth and pour ashes over my head while I sit contritely in the virtual corner over here…:-(

  21. Audra says:

    This conversation reminds me of the professional sax players of the world vs. Kenny G argument. Why do many sax players despise Kenny G? Because, compared to the complex struggles of the musical artist, his stuff is simple, overrated, and it appeals to a broader audience (read: lower common denominator). And, he makes boatloads of cash because people love it anyway.

    The conclusion? It’s not that “the masses” have no taste; it’s that people have different tastes depending on immeasurable factors such as where they grew up, what their parents liked, or where their youth was situated in time. So, certain things may not resonate with someone, or might, depending on the person as well as the quality of the art.

    Is “Transformers” art? Of course. But comparing it to something like “Citizen Kane” is absurd; it’d be like comparing 50 Cent to Copland. Both have value; both display brilliance according to the standards of their genre, time, audience, and overall context.

    In the end, I think it’s just more fun to be inclusive rather than exclusive about art, as Chuck is pointing out. One of my favorite parts about teaching is using popular culture as a tool to communicate and have fun. I learned that from a prof that did the same in one of my undergrad classes, allowing us lower-economic rural farm kids access to the same great literature taught in private schools. For me, pop culture is the bridge between economic and other social classes. And appreciating things that are silly or overblown or heavy-handed is an important part of understanding the whole of what connects us, don’t you think?

  22. Armando says:

    Well, yeah. I wasn’t trying to, nor do I think I’ve ever said that I feel otherwise. I just said that Michael Bay’s films are “crimes against humanity.” Come on, how could you possibly misunderstand such hyperbole? 🙂

    As usual, that kind of stuff gets me in trouble.

  23. Pike says:

    Heh. I got a chuckle out of reading Chuck’s last post. I kept saying to myself, “You realize you’re talking to Armando, don’t you?”

    And of course, there IS a reason that Bay got an entire song to himself in Team America.

  24. AirborneAce says:

    Transformers is the best Bay film to date

    Pearl Harbor would be good if you edited it down to about 30-45 minutes of pure airplane badassery

  25. Shaymus22 says:

    Hey – I’m glad you peeps liked the intro(s)! 🙂

  26. Armando says:

    Heh. I got a chuckle out of reading Chuck’s last post. I kept saying to myself, “You realize you’re talking to Armando, don’t you?”

    Um, I don’t get it, Pike. I do actually feel bad about insulting Chuck, even though I didn’t mean to.

  27. Chuck says:

    Armando: Hey, no worries. As I said, I figured it was unintentional. That’s why I explained where I’m coming from. It’s all cool — and always was.

  28. Armando says:

    I figured as much, Chuck. As I explained, though, this sort of thing (using hyperboles assuming people will understand that I’m exaggerating just a tad) has gotten me in trouble before and I have, for the most part, learned to phrase things in such a way as to avoid controversy.

    Next time I’ll just remember to say “I don’t like Michael Bay movies” and leave it at that. Might avoid a whole lot of craaaaaaaap that way.

    (Then again, my one-time roommate, who has occassionally posted here under the screen name “chucksax,” will tell you stories about how he would pick fights with me JUST to hear me get mad because when I did, my accent would come back and he thought it was funny to hear me swear with a Spanish accent. Of course, he didn’t tell me this until the day I moved out–to get married. You thought I was going to say that I left in disgust, didn’t you? HA!)

  29. Armando says:

    Oh–and out of curiosity, where were you a Sinfonian? I myself wasn’t one (never got into the Greek system, alas) but had a number of friends, the previously mentioned roommate among them, who were sinfonians.

  30. Pike says:

    “Um, I don’t get it, Pike. I do actually feel bad about insulting Chuck, even though I didn’t mean to.”

    No, I was just surfing both ends of it. I absolutely agree with what Chuck was saying, the humor was that he was saying it to you, who would also agree with what Chuck was saying.

    Somewhere there’s a Mastercard spoof in all of that.


  31. Mike P says:

    Mea maxima culpa, I have not yet listened to the podcast — I wanted to re-re-watch “Scattered” before doing so — so I am shamelessly shoe-horning some extra thoughts I had on this episode into this space, since I know that I don’t keep checking old frak party threads once we have moved on come Sunday, and I suspect others do likewise…

    All that’s to say, forgive if you guys discussed these things in the ‘cast. 🙂

    1) Not only is Tigh stepping up to a more authoritative and responsible role in this episode, but so is Chief, and so is Dr. Jamie Bamber’s Wife. (Sorry, didn’t catch the character’s name.) Yet another frakking awesome example of how the writers on BSG are So Good. Huzzah for parallelism!

    2) Is there any great significance to the fact that Tigh’s door had a big ‘3’ on it? We got an awful lot of shots of it… Do we know yet what the number 3 model Cylon is?

    3) Tigh’s comment to the semiconscious Adama at the end — “You should never have gotten me back in the fleet, you should’ve left me on Caprica, I would’ve died and been better off” — made me flash on the ancient Israelites’ grumblings against Moses in the wilderness — “Why did you bring us out of Egypt with its fleshpots? Were there not graves enough there to die?” Granted, Tigh’s tone is very different, but the similarity of content (maybe a real honest-to-lords-of-Kobol allusion?) made me wonder if somehow *Adama* is going to turn out to be the dying leader who takes the people to Earth. (Maybe someone has already suggested this — if so, please forgive.) Maybe we will learn in season 4 that there were serious but previously unnoticed complications from the gunshot wound, and Adama has been dying the whole time… I dunno, I doubt it, I think we’ve established the prophecy specifies Laura — but it would be a cool and rather unexpected twist. Thoughts?

    Ok, we now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of the podcast, wherein it would seem “Transformers” gets a lot of praise. I saw it with Timbuck and Raemani over the weekend, and I think I liked it a lot less than they did. Cool special effects, though. But we all did agree that Galactica it ain’t. 🙂

  32. Timbuck says:

    Chuck said: Specifically: work need not be complex — or appeal to any specific group of “respected” people — to qualify as “art.”

    So say we all.

    I minored in Philosophy and took a class in aesthetics. It was taught by the Dean of Arts and Sciences so I really expected it to be great. It was craaaaaap! The more people try to define “art” and “beauty” the worse it gets. Things are “art” or “beautiful” if you feel they are. There is no universal formula that fits everyone.

    Example: I have a degree w honors in psychology and a minor in philosophy from a well rated state school in NJ. I am also a huge metalhead. However, I love the composer Wagner w a passion. [His work was well used in the movie “Excalibur”]. I dislike hip-hop and rap (a lot!) but there is some of it that’s got some merit.

    My opinion is if you like it that’s great. If it moves you it’s probably “art” to you. It can be harsh too; I saw Leni Riefenstahl’s (sp?) uber (mind the pun) Nazi propaganda film “Triumph of the Will” and it moved me. It also sickened me beyond belief when you look at what those SOB’s later did. It was a powerful movie that distorted people minds back then and in turn promoted pure, big-frakkin E, evil.

    Overall, “Transformers” was not art-proper but it was awesomely entertaining and that’s why I go to theater movies. In contrast, I saw “Letters From Iwo Jima” in the theater and that moved me to both awe because the devastation, but it was also a dose of reality about the nature of war. “Saving Private Ryan” is of the same ilk.

    I love the debate here, but let’s just remember no one’s opinion is better than any others. So says me.

  33. Nick B says:

    Well I’m still not driven to go and see Transformers (don’t know if it’s out in the UK yet anyway), but I have to say I loved Armageddon – it was so shamelessly brash and ridiculous, not to mention proudly cheesy, that it won me over. I saw it at the cinema here in my small English city, and at the end when they’re doing the hero march on the tarmac and all that, a guy behind me shouted in full irony “God, I wish I was American!” This raised a big chuckle and summed to movie up, but a full-on rollercoaster ride of guilty pleasure it was.

    As for things being panned because they’re popular, this is really common. In academia those who seek to present their work in plain language to a mass audience often lose their credibility among their peers, many of whom seem to believe that specialist knowledge should remain secret, the preserve of small elite. Academic language is often a reflection of this. A friend of mine submitted a paper to a journal and a reviewer criticised it because the language was “a bit pedestrian”. My friend went through the paper and replaced some of the words with longer ones but made no other changes, then the paper was approved.

    Having said all that, there is plenty of popular stuff our there that people have put a lot of work into that I, in my subjective opinion, think is utter crap. I’m thinking mostly about reality TV and certain self-help books here. Of course I accept my minority status, although even a lot of people who religious watch things like “Big Brother” seem to think it’s pretty awful, but are fixated on it like bystanders at a road accident. But is it art? Probably. For me some of the functions of art are to generate reaction, challenge perceptions, and encourage debate. So if someone displays a urinal and says it’s art I’ll go along with it, particularly when it makes people mad! I’d certainly be very wary of saying what is and was isn’t art. I think for me the important thing is impact. Shows like BSG encourage us to think about the world whereas shows like Big Brother and its reality spawn probably distract us more from it that anything else (discuss….). In between there’s room for good old fashioned entertainment though, if fighting robots can be called old fashioned.

  34. Nick B says:

    Just finished listening to the podcast, so here are some reactions.

    As for Adama and Tigh being out of the fleet way back when, perhaps in Adama’s case this was after his frak-up with Bulldog and the Red Line, which we hear about in Season 3. I haven’t rewatched this but I seem to recall something about him being made something of a scapegoat here.

    As for poor old Crashdown, his mistake was to continue to try and stamp his authority on the survivors of the crash even when it was obvious he was out of his depth and wasn’t ready to lead people. But maybe in that military environment and because of his rank he felt he had no other choice. In the end the Chief took this line, preferring to keep the military hierarchy alive than to let military discipline dissolve, even though by doing so Crashdow was likely to get them all killed. But Crashdown could still have listened to the Chief, letting the Chief make decisions that he was more qualified to do, while he (Crashdown) remained nominally in charge. The Chief wasn’t going to undermine Crashdown, and Crash should have known this. But then perhaps the ability to delegate, to let others guide you, to take advice, and to realise that people aren’t out to undermine you was beyond Crashdown, as these are also leadership qualities.

    In the end it was really Baltar who made the decision and took control of the situation, even though this was probably as much for his own sake as for the others’. I remember hoping that this would be a turning point after which Baltar would find his courage, and being disappointed that his character just degenerated further. Here he demonstrated that he could be a person of authority and action when pushed, rather than collapsing into a quivering wreck when trouble reared its head (and there are other instances throughout the various series). I guess there’s still time for him to redeem himself somehow (whether he’s the final cylon or not), and I’d like to see this happen. It’s more interesting to see someone like Baltar develop and find their courage, Sam Gamgee like, that to see people who already have courage exercise it. That’s not to say that the likes of Lee and Kara and Helo etc are not interesting – they have enough personal issues to make them multi-dimensional, and they have to find different types of courage, not just the overcoming-the-fear-of-death kind.

    Anyway, as Chuck so rightly pointed out, some of us spend far too much time on here when we should be working, so I’m off to try and do something constructive.

  35. Armando says:

    “I love the debate here, but let’s just remember no one’s opinion is better than any others. So says me. ”

    Timbuck, I love the irony here. Heh-heh! 🙂 Especially since everyone knows MY opinion is better than the rest of you’s. HA!

    (Yeah, right.)

    Anyway, you make some excellent points, of course. One of the things I’ve had to deal with is that, as an undergraduate, I was taught by some very conservative teachers, so that I still have this sense that only a certain kind of art is “Art” with a capital “A.” Thankfully, some of my later teachers had more catholic (as in “universal,” not Roman) tastes and led me to see the craft and merit of a lot of different varieties of work (so when I did my doctoral oral prelims and had to select ten pieces of repertoire to research the craaaaaap out of, I ended up with a list that included a Gershwin tune and a Beatles album, among the classical stuff).

    For me, Art (capital “a”) has to work both at the visceral level where you’re moved emotionally AND at the intellectual level where you can get a lot out of it on repeated exposure (I find, more and more, that BSG meets this criterion. It’s really something!). This is not to suggest that I don’t like things that don’t meet this criterion. As a friend of mine once put it: sure caviar and filet mignon are great, but there are times when only a greasy slice of pizza will do. 🙂

    I’m glad, though, to have provided the first instance of anything resembling conflict on this board. The fact that this is what conflict is like on here is one of the reasons I keep coming back. You guys rock.

    Now, back to topic: I can’t remember who suggested watching some of the deleted scenes for the first episodes of season 2 last week, but I went back and watched all of the season 2.0 deleted scenes (for the first time, no less–gasp!) last night. The Adama/Tigh flashback stuff in particular is fascinating. Bill really did save Tigh’s life, not by keeping him from being shot or anything like that, but by helping him get his drinking and his temper under control. No wonder Tigh is so committed to his friend!

  36. 13th Cylon says:

    Very good podcast.

    I’ll have to check Transformers out now. Plus Jon Voight’s in it. I listen to Dennis Miller’s little radio show at work on my iPod and he was on there the other day talking about the movie, but yesterday Dennis said that he saw the movie and that seeing Jon run around against a blue screen was worth the price of admission. It’s so true though! Some of the older actors clearly have no clue about CGI and blue/green screen type of stuff.

    And Audra, being “the coolest”, I thought you would’ve known that line about Alderaan. So disappointing. lol

  37. Pike says:

    “… sure caviar and filet mignon are great, but there are times when only a greasy slice of pizza will do.”

    Bah! Caviar isn’t Food!


  38. Chuck says:

    re: caviar and filet mingon

    I’ve told Matrix uber-fan Sean numerous times that as much as I’d love to see myself as Morpheus or Neo, I’d probably end up as Cypher. The minute they plopped that digitally-perfect, medium-rare filet and Pinot in front of me, I’d sell out, too.


  39. Mike P says:

    See how much fun a podcast of you guys doing other genre stuff could be? Here’s hoping this week’s “Transformers” discussion is a preview of what will come in the post-422 Watercooler world… 🙂

    For the record (quoth the Trekkie), Star Trek novels are not considered canon, even when by producers or stars.

    Also, keeping with a Trek vein momentarily, the scene of the nurse/doctor performing surgery during the battle — did that remind anyone else of “Journey to Babel”? I kept expecting Adama to get up muttering, “I should be on the bridge…” And, re: “Starbuck getting Gandalfed” — if that’s the case, I’m sure we’ll all be saying, as McCoy did of Spock, “I think I liked him better before he died.” 🙂

  40. Armando says:

    That whole canon question is a good one. As far as I’m concerned I don’t consider anything that’s not on screen to be canon, fun diversions in the playground though they might be.

    I’m not much of a Star Trek fan but this issue has come up in Star Wars fandom as well, since there are now, what, like a gajillion SW novels out there. George Lucas himself is asked the question of whether or not these things are in the canon and he just laughs the whole idea off. As far as he’s concerned, he says, the novels are about letting other people play in his playground for a little bit (it helps that he makes quite a bit of money from the licensing, I’m sure). I kind of see the BSG novels in the same way. I wonder how Moore and Eick feel, though.

    As far as filet mignon and The Matrix go, well, I’d probably end up being Agent Smith. The bad guys have more fun anyway. (I always wanted to be Darth Vader when I was a kid!)

  41. Pike says:

    If you’re the impatient type and want to get your BSG rewatch over in five minutes, someone’s got you covered:

  42. IceCap says:

    Great podcast and great posts (as usual)…

    AKRon & Armando: “…take a look at the deleted scenes…” There is a great homage to Apocalypse Now in the hotel room when Adama gets Tigh reinstated into the fleet. The twist is that the knock on the door also stops Tigh from committing suicide. It really informs the relationship between the two and the loyalty Tigh feels towards Adama.

    Mike P “Is there any great significance to the fact that Tigh’s door had a big ‘3′ on it?” How about that Tigh represents a third group: not human and not Cylon. I think the idea postulated a while back by a caller on the podcast (sorry I forgot your name 🙂 ) was that they might be “1940 Germans” but not Nazis.

  43. IceCap says:

    Couple of points about Baltar’s visit to the Opera House: this opens up a huge question for me about the nature of Baltar and why he can imagines the same opera house as Roslin, Sharon and Hera see in Season 3. Here are my guesses:

    1) He’s a Cylon. I think this goes against what the show is trying to accomplish. By making Baltar a Cylon in any form, his amoral and immoral behaviour is explained away in a way that allows the audience to escape implications of the flaws in human nature he represents. This theme- revisited in the New Caprican occupation- is that each one of us as the audience, under similar circumstances, might choose to act in a similar fashion. In his case Baltar- whose narcissism (I think) is a comment on today’s celebrity culture- starts with excessive lust and pride. This leads to his role in the genocide and his actions thereafter are self-serving, self-preserving and self-centred. In this light Baltar can be seen as a model for mankind’s inability to act against modern day brutality, genocide or even environmental degradation. If he’s a Cylon then his motivations are not our motivations and we don’t learn from his bad example.

    2) Baltar has a chip in his head. This goes against the anti-“technobabble” theme of the show and it also gives the audience the same out as above.

    3) Baltar is schizophrenic genius with a great intuition that allows him to make wild but fortuitous guesses about, well… anything involved in saving his own life. He sees “Head 6” in his head as a way for his conscious mind to access his unconscious or what Carl Jung might have suggested was a collective unconscious. (I think the term used by Jung was objective psyche.) Psych 101 was a long time ago for me but I think the theory attempts to explain a process that allows an individual to become who they are suppose to be (i.e. self-actualization).

    Even if the practise on the show is not the same as the real life theory, I think the collective unconscious idea (in the humans) makes the most sense because Roslin has also been able to access the same thoughts in her vision of the Opera house. It ties in with the “religion is real” theme of the show and the “happened before/will happen again” theme in that the Opera House still exists on some level. Most importantly it could also be a way to explain what was going on with Tigh, Anders, Tyrol and Tory. Like the model Cylons they might just be archetypes for humanity who have reached some level of self-discovery about what they represent. It could also imply that everyone on the show shares both Cylon and Human ancestors.

  44. FleetRN says:

    With regards to the question of canon, I have always looked at “extra” published works from the Star Wars and Star Trek (and Independence Day) domains as occurring in “alternate universes” with same characters but different situations. I haven’t seen the BSG paperbacks but I’d assume the same thing while reading them.

  45. Melissa (aka the Fair Melissa) says:

    I got the Animal House reference right away (a classic movie in my family) and you know Elmer Bernstein did the music for Animal House. Who, we now know from our religious podcast listening, was Bear McCreary’s mentor. Is it time for six degrees of Elmer? (sorry, Timbuck).

    Chuck, I COMPLETELY agree with you about the scene from Firefly’s real “pilot”. I love the fact that Mal shot the man, plain and simple. Also thought it was true to his character to punch Saffron in “Our Mrs. Reynolds”. I am too far ahead in the rewatch, so I’ve been filling the gaps with “Firefly”. Love, love, love that show.

  46. Mike P says:

    Armando — Interesting, I have always heard that the Star Wars novels are considered canonical. The “expanded universe,” and whatnot. (Sorry, although I still enjoy the original trilogy of IV-VI, I don’t know much about the Lucasverse after that.) Now, perhaps that is Lucasfilm’s official stance, while Lucas himself couldn’t care less so long as the cash keeps flowing in, so you are probably quite correct (as usual!).

    I was lucky enough to get to play in the Star Trek sandbox for money once, and it was made quite clear that nothing written could contradict on-screen “canon,” but that no attention need be paid to the various novels. Now, however, about a decade later, the authors seem to be tying all their works together. Of course, once JJ Abrams reboots the franchise, ’twill all be moot. 😉

  47. Mike P says:

    “By making Baltar a Cylon in any form, his amoral and immoral behaviour is explained away in a way that allows the audience to escape implications of the flaws in human nature he represents.”

    IceCap, well said. I really liked your arguments against Baltar being a Cylon. I have never really thought of him as an Everyman kind of character but I guess in a way he is, isn’t he? As Chuck/Sean/Audra said in a recent podcast, how would *we* react to having to sign a death order at gunpoint, for example? And wouldn’t our first reaction to the attack likely be, “Gods, I hope they don’t find out I caused this!”

    Since I am persuaded (or at least optimistic) that BSG is ultimately going to come down on the “yea” side of the resolution “Whether humanity deserves to survive,” maybe viewing Baltar as an Everyman would suggest that he may yet be redeemed before the series’ end?

    Does anyone know if Baltar has any health problems? Maybe *he* is the dying leader who will lead the tribes to Earth? Maybe Head Six is really a really wacked out brain disorder that’s killing him?

    Ok, that was out of left field. But I am starting to wonder if we should be wholeheartedly swallowing the idea that Roslin is the dying leader. As plenty of other posters around these parts have pointed out, there may be other candidates.

  48. Audra says:

    OK I have to set the record straight!! I know the planet Alderaan was Princess Leia’s homeworld that got blown up in the beginning of Episode IV, and I asked Sean because I was too lazy to think of it at the time! lol. I DO NOW remember and would have come up with it in the proceeding seconds if I tried. So say we all! 🙂

  49. Nick B says:

    Mike P – I love the idea of Baltar being the dying leader who saves humanity. I don’t know why, but I’ve always really related to his character (maybe just because he’s one of the few Brits in the show, although I don’t think I’m that shallow ;-)).

    I totally agree about Baltar being an everyman, and would love to see him redeem himself, as I’ve said before. But I still think he can be used as a vehicle for comments on narcissism and celebrity (in fact a great analogy if he is redeemed, as it suggests that our contemporary celeb-obsessed, shallow culture might also find redemption).

    However, I’m still convinced that he’s not just an ordinary guy, albeit a genius ordinary guy. I’m sure there’s something going on with him, and that it relates to the Cylons in a way that goes beyond his physical relationship with 6 and him seeing Head 6 as a projection of his subconscious. I think Head 6 knows too much about what’s going on, and also think that the fact that Caprica 6 has a Head Baltar is a bit fishy. Of course this might just be a nice plot device with no deeper significance, but I wonder.

    Whether or not Baltar is a regular genius or a Cylon I still think there will be value in his redemption. To a large extent BSG is based on the idea that there isn’t as much separating human and Cylon as each side thinks. I’m happy with the idea that they are all “us” – not just the humans. Just look at the very human reaction of Tigh when he realises he’s a cylon (and I think he is). I related more to him when he said “I’m Saul Tigh, and that’s the man I want to be, and I’m going to do my job” or words to that effect at the end of Crossroads, that I have to him at any other point in the show. Seeing a Cylon decide that they were going to be human was really moving and profound, and deals with the very human issue of the nature of free will. So I don’t think that a character’s being a Cylon means that they’re incapable of redemption or that their experiences can’t resonate with our world and our situation as 21st century human beings on Earth.

  50. Armando says:

    Armando — Interesting, I have always heard that the Star Wars novels are considered canonical. The “expanded universe,” and whatnot. (Sorry, although I still enjoy the original trilogy of IV-VI, I don’t know much about the Lucasverse after that.) Now, perhaps that is Lucasfilm’s official stance, while Lucas himself couldn’t care less so long as the cash keeps flowing in, so you are probably quite correct (as usual!).

    I was lucky enough to get to play in the Star Trek sandbox for money once, and it was made quite clear that nothing written could contradict on-screen “canon,” but that no attention need be paid to the various novels. Now, however, about a decade later, the authors seem to be tying all their works together. Of course, once JJ Abrams reboots the franchise, ’twill all be moot.

    You wrote a Star Trek novel or story, Mike? How cool is that!

    My understanding of how it works on Star Wars is more or less the same as what you describe for Star Trek. I’ve only read the Timothy Zahn Star Wars novels (the first three and then the two he wrote to wrap up the series when Bantam lost the license so that the new licensee–Del Ray?–could start fresh with a new storyline) and a couple of short stories and such, since the whole “expanded universe” hasn’t really interested me much beyond a little curiosity now and then. I do know that the various writers given the task of writing these stories have to coordinate with each other so there aren’t any internal contradictions within the “EU.” I think you’re right in that Lucasfilm, the company, does seem to consider them canonical (in as far as they are concerned with maintaining the integrity of their product) but Lucas himself doesn’t really think of them much other than when it’s time to rollover his 401k.

  51. Mike P says:

    Nick writes: “I don’t think that a character’s being a Cylon means that they’re incapable of redemption or that their experiences can’t resonate with our world and our situation as 21st century human beings on Earth.”

    I agree with this. Clearly, in the re-watch alone we’ve already seen Sharon (future Athena) break free from her Cylon programming to some extent and genuinely fall in love with Helo. And you’re right to point to Tigh’s initial response that he is (supposedly) a Cylon. So I guess I have to back down a bit from my original post. I do still have a gut instinct that Baltar is not a Cylon, and that Head Six is “just” his subconscious mind expressing itself (although I know there is evidence that contradicts that intrepretation). I mean, if Baltar were a Cylon, why would the Cylons have had to entrap Baltar back on Caprica in the first place? Seems like it would have been a lot easier to activate him, as they did Boomer.

    I think again of “Six Degrees…” Was Baltar telling the truth that he was not at the defense installation, and that he — “our” Baltar — was being framed, that the Baltar in the picture was another copy of the “Baltar Model”? And that he freaked out, as any of us might, at being painted as damnably guilty, and just didn’t know what to do, thus accounting for his attempt to destroy Gaeta’s computer lab?

    Sigh. It is questions like this, and comments like yours, that make me realize how little of a handle I actually have on the BSGverse, and how I should talk less and listen more. 🙂

    I *will* still feel somewhat cheated if “everyone is a Cylon.” I don’t see how that can be done without playing fast and loose with semantics or previously established plot. “The CYLONS were created by MAN…” Two groups! Two! 🙂

    Armando — Yes, I was fortunate to have a short story chosen for the second “Strange New Worlds” anthology published by Pocket back in 1999. Have not been able to duplicate said success since then (although I do a lot of free-lance non-fiction writing). It was a high point, to be sure!

  52. Melissa (aka the Fair Melissa) says:

    Mike P – I’m glad to see I’m not the only one who thinks Baltar (and not Roslin) is the dying leader. Perhaps his death is a spiritual death instead of a physical death – all of the things that he has done to get them this far has destroyed what makes him human.

  53. IceCap says:

    Mike P writes ““The CYLONS were created by MAN…” Two groups! Two!”
    Nick B writes “So I don’t think that a character’s being a Cylon means that they’re incapable of redemption…”

    Maybe the point is the word “Cylon” was created by man as a prism to view a bi-polar universe. One group of Cylons attacked the Colonies; one group of Cylons did not. The human reaction to each group is the same: hatred and fear. Will they move beyond that and can we as an audience see anything in our own world that is similar and learn a lesson from their experience?

    My favourite everyman character is Chief Tyrol. We see in ‘Burdens II and Dirty Hands how he will fight for the marginalized in Colonial Society… and he’s always been a Cylon. I don’t think he’s going to change so I think we are going to see the show continue to blur the lines…

    Mike P writes “Does anyone know if Baltar has any health problems?”

    Mental or physical? 🙂

    Melissa writes: “Perhaps his [Baltar’s] death is a spiritual death”

    Wow! That’s awesome! He does sometimes strike Christ-like poses. Season 4 = 40 days in the wilderness? Maybe his new ship will be called the “Qumran.”

    Armando writes: “As far as I’m concerned I don’t consider anything that’s not on screen to be canon…”

    I agree. Just Google “Dreilide”…

  54. Mike P says:

    The Fair Melissa says, “all of the things that [Baltar] has done to get them this far has destroyed what makes him human.”

    Yes, just so! I think such a take on the character would be perfectly in keeping with the series’ thesis, “Humans are [or are not] worth saving.” I do wonder what is up with the women in red, and how his spiritual progression (?) as a religious icon will develop in season 4.

    Which reminds me, I kept meaning to ask if anyone else saw a parallel between the soldier asking Laura to pray with him in “Scattered” and the woman who seeks Baltar’s healing intercession for her kid in “Crossways”? My English professors always taught me it wasn’t enough to notice parallels and symbols, you have to give them significance (right, Audra?), and I must admit I am not sure what this parallel (if it is there) might mean — but it seems at the least worth bearing in mind.

  55. Mike P says:

    IceCap suggests, “Maybe the point is the word ‘Cylon’ was created by man as a prism to view a bi-polar universe. One group of Cylons attacked the Colonies; one group of Cylons did not.”

    Nyeh, I don’t know. I could see it — but it seems like a semantic argument at some level, which is, as I said, exactly what I’m afraid of. I think we should take the statement “The Cylons were created by Man” at face value. Now, having said that, it’s entirely possible — maybe even probable at this point — that some Cylons have decided the attack was a mistake, and they want to change the original plan (presumably) of eradicating the human race. But that would be a later development. I would like to think that, at the time of the attacks, destroying “man” was the Cylon plan.

    I can’t quite explain why it would bug me so much if “everyone turns out to be a Cylon,” except to say that at some level it will feel like a betrayal of the ground rules we started out with.

  56. Phoenix says:

    I’ve always suspected that Adama, not Roslin, is the true dying leader. I like the idea of Baltar as well!

  57. 13th Cylon says:

    Chuck- You said that you’ll have get an XBox 360 for Halo 3, well, you might want to get the new BSG game for XBox Live while you’re at it. Of the 5 pictures they released today, one is of the belly flop. They’ve said that as the show continues, they’ll add new levels (hopefully they actually do that). It even has online multiplayer stuff. Comes out this fall (I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the same time as Razor).


    Hopefully it’s not as insanely hard as the 2003 one was. My brother and I can’t even get past the first level on that one.

  58. 13th Cylon says:

    I need to clarify that- It’s for the XBox Live Arcade. No disk, you download it. It’s pushing the limits of what’s possible as far as XBLA goes.

  59. Armando says:

    I understand it will also be available for PC, which is what I’m hoping for since I gave up on consoles long ago (I just don’t have the time nor the money. Wish I did, though). Thanks for the update, 13th. And yes, the 2003 game was hard. I bought it and tried out the first level for a few hours…then returned it the next day, frustrated at having so few save points and having to work my butt off for very little pay off. That may be what I get for being a “casual” gamer, though.

  60. The 13th Cylon says:

    Yeah, it’ll be out for the PC as well.

  61. Timbuck says:

    13th Cylon said: Hopefully it’s not as insanely hard as the 2003 one was. My brother and I can’t even get past the first level on that one.

    So say we all! I can’t get past screen 1. Frakkin frustrating.

    The amount of conjecture on this link alone, esp about dying leaders, has my head spinning. Baltar? Nay. [Sorry Melissa]. Adama is a whole different idea.

    Of course since RDM could have read this link, he’ll go and frak w us all by having Muffit, the Daggitfuhrer, be the dying leader.

    [Hope I spelled that right. I took Spanish. Boxey?]

  62. Nick B says:

    To back up a few posts….

    I don’t think everyone’s going to turn out to be a Cylon. However, I don’t think the Significant 7 (S7) and the Final 5 (F5 from here on, or Tighlons as I like to call them) are the same kind of Cylon, as has been discussed quite a lot already. The S7 know about the F5 but don’t know who they are – as far as they are concerned Tigh and the rest are humans (note 3’s “apology” in the Temple of 5). So if Baltar is an F5-type Cylon with his own agenda, then the S7 wouldn’t know anything about it, and certainly couldn’t activate him for their own ends. I’m pretty convinced that the S7 and the F5, despite their connection, represent separate groups with different agendas. The nature of their connection hasn’t been addressed much yet, but it seems that the S7 revere the F5 – the F5 seem to be something like gods to the S7, or at least figures of great authority. Perhaps the S7 found out about the F5 through scriptures, or made contact with some sort of representation of the culture the F5 come from, and were told about “the other Cylons”. Perhaps the S7 know there are 5 other Cylon models (maybe they know they’re in the Fleet, maybe not), but that’s it, and they don’t know precisely what they’re up to or what their agenda is.

    My suspicion is that the F5 are connected with Earth – maybe everyone is a “Cylon” (of the F5 rather than the S7 kind) on Earth, but I don’t think this is the case with the colonials, who I think are straight-down-the-line humans, except maybe for a very hybrids. I also suspect that the F5 and their culture at large are potentially sympathetic to the colonials, or at least not bent on their destruction.

    I don’t think Starbuck is the 5th Cylon – but she may be a hybrid (see other posts about her possibly being Tigh’s daughter). My suspicion is that the F5 culture somehow “rescued” her (whether physically or by downloading her) and took her to Earth, and have sent her back as an ambassador or mediator, to help manage the eventual contact between Earth/F5 culture and the colonials. (Leoben might be in cahoots with the F5 somehow, and be looking out for Starbuck in his own unique way.)

    As I’ve said before, I suspect the F5 (or 4) in the Fleet are serving as part of an early warning system for Earth, set up to be activated at a certain proximity to Earth – the music is broadcast constantly from somewhere in or near the nebula the Fleet reached at the end of Season 3, and when sleeper F5 cylons come into contact with it they’re activated. So their activation has nothing to do with the machinations of the S7 on their base-stars, but is rather so that they can manage the contact with Earth, either for the benefit of Earth or the colonials or both.

    So with the F5 associated with Earth and pursuing a different agenda from the S7, with Starbuck a hybrid resurrected or rescued by the F5 Earth culture, and with 4 F5 Cylons having been revealed, there is room for a fifth F5 Cylon. I suspect this may be Baltar, but I suspect he might be a renegade F5 Cylon, perhaps not that different from his human persona in terms of narcissism and megalomania. He may be the architect of the links between the S7 and the F5, and he may have done this without the agreement of the other members of the F5 – perhaps they’re in the Fleet to keep an eye on him, or to thwart his dubious plans. These plans might be nefarious, but on the other hand maybe he’s out to reconcile the S7-type Cylons with the humans – perhaps that’s his plan. If it is, maybe the other F5-type Cylons just wanted to leave the S7s and the humans to fight it out, and not get involved. Perhaps Baltar is really motivated by altruism, but perhaps his plan to reconcile human and cylon went horribly wrong with the destruction of the colonies. (OK, so this is extrapolating way beyond the available data now!)

    Admittedly, the reason for the F5 being sleepers rather than just under cover would take some explaining in this theoretical framework. Maybe they needed to avoid detection by the S7 and this is why they are sleepers. If there is a disagreement between members of the F5 perhaps they are just trying to hide from each other. And maybe Baltar has set himself up not to be “activated” at the same time as the others. Instead he might have set up Head 6 to become active and guide him when needed, so he can carry on avoiding detection by the the other F5 without revealing himself.

    Maybe this is just insane craaaaaap and I’ve been devoting far too much of my brain to wondering what’s going on. Do let me know if I’ve completely lost plot, both literally and metaphorically!

    Whatever the machinations of the F5, the activation of four of them will introduce a very interesting dynamic, as the S7 seem to revere the F5, at least to a certain extent (Cavill, might be less reverent that the others). What will happen when the S7’s “gods” are revealed and turn out to be on the human side of the conflict (assuming this is their decision)? Will there be religious rifts within the S7? Will we have competing sides based not on the human-cylon division but on different factions within human and cylon society cooperating with each other on the basis of ideologies of coexistence versus those of extermination? How long are the four new Cylons going to keep their identities secret? I’m sure they won’t admit to their revelations immediately, so we can expect things to carry on as “normal” for a while in Season 4. But they might feel compelled to reveal their natures in order to support the humans against the S7-type cylons on their base-stars.

    OK, enough from me here….

  63. Mike P says:

    Fabulous post, Nick. It sparked numerous musings.

    What if Head Six (as opposed to the Sixes who are F5s) *is* God? That would explain how she knows God’s will all the time, and spends her time (much of it anyway) trying to perusade Baltar to submit to God’s love. (The use of male pronouns for God would be either misdirection or, more likely, linguistic convention [albeit a sexist one] as in English.)

    How did 5 of the Cylons get to be so different from the other 7? Did this happen during the “evolution” alluded to in the title cards of every episode?

    I still really hope Baltar turns out to be human through and through, albeit one frakked up one (who among us isn’t?).

    I also have a feeling that the show really needs to be fudamentally not about divisions between and within Cylons. I worry that all the machinations of the various Cylon camps are robbing humanity of its own free agency — the fleet is reduced to a pawn in a power struggle among the Cylons.

    Again, great post, Nick. My wonderings and questions are not necessarily directed just at you, and are certainly not attacks on your theory. I guess I’m approaching it from two levels: (1) the theory is cool, but (2) I really hope they don’t go there! Make sense? 🙂

    (I will, say, however, I do totally support Starbuck being Tigh’s kid!)

    Is it 2008 yet? 😉

  64. Nick B says:

    Mike P – feel free to sling as much mud as you like at my theories. I’m sure they’re highly suspect. I like the idea of Head 6 and Head Baltar being manifestations of some sort of higher power, whether it be God or some other intelligence.

    I think the Final 5 are different because they evolved during a previous cycle – way back in the days of Kobol. So they were already there, lurking in the background, while the more familiar Cylons were developing and the latest war was going on. And I suspect that these earlier Cylons (Tigh and the others) had placed some of their kind among the colonial population so that they could keep an eye on them, even if this just meant keeping them there as sleepers until the humans were on the verge of finding Earth.

    And here’s yet another idea. Perhaps there is a “Final 5 genetic line” among the humans, allowing the likes of Tigh, Tyrol, Anders and Tori to be born through the mixing of the earlier Cylons with humans, while retaining some “Cylonity” through their genetic heritage. If this is the case there may have been many partial Cylons in the human population, in which case we can get around the coincidence of these four (and presumably 5) Cylons just happening to end up in the Fleet. They might just be the surviving representatives of the Cylon genetic line. OK, so that’s a slightly different theory to the one I outlined above, and might undermine a lot of but the ideas in my last post, but it would still work in terms of the Final 5 being part of an early warning system put in place to protect Earth.

    In fact if there was an earlier human-cylon conflict, and the cylons fled to Earth, the early warning system makes a lot of sense in terms of the Earth-Cylons (Tighlons) being worried about humans coming to take revenge on them. This would be a nice echo of the “happened before” theme.

  65. snacktime says:

    I came across this while blog-surfing and thought I’d pop in here to link to it for Sean–Bumblebee (car used in the movie) on eBay.

  66. IceCap says:

    Nick B I also really like your theory (and your dedication 🙂 ). There’s something about BSG… it’s like a tune in your head you just can’t quite get… “There must be some kinda way out of here…” 🙂

    Let me throw these two bits into the mix:

    I think it’s plausible that the F5 are in the place they have to be. I think “it’s all happened before” might mean a certain prescience on behalf of the F5 meaning they would know when and where to show up. (If we want to stretch the analogy to Christianity when, where and to whom to be born and when to “transfigure.”) If you think of all the things these characters have done to advance/save the human race… well let’s just say they have a better track record then even Racetrack. 🙂

    Mike P brought up the symbolism of the parallels between the prayers offered during incarceration of Roslin and Baltar. It got me thinking how the only other person who has been in prison AND President is Tom Zarek. Although no one treated Zarek as a religious leader, he was certainly revered among certain of the humans. He called for a change in Colonial society before and after the Holocaust. We’ve seen his character grow throughout the series in a positive way so for some of the reasons posted earlier for Baltar being the “dying leader” or the “final Cylon,” (and because I’m too lazy right now to think of any really good ones) I would suggest it might be Zarek. Plus it’s the kind of the thing I suspect RDM would do for Richard Hatch. 🙂

  67. Nick B says:

    IceCap – “LOL” You’re being kind when you say dedication – more like a compulsion or an obsession! Like you say, it’s like a tune in your head – the music, the music….

    Good point about Zarek and the nod to Richard Hatch there – you could be onto something….

    Leaving it here for an uncharacteristically short post from me. Dinner calls.

    Much more to follow (all of this has….yadda yadda…;-))

  68. BSG-32 Minnesotia says:

    I gotta agree with Chuck (I think it was Chuck) once again–Hmmm…..Cally. Nicky Clyne…..Way better than Six. She’s got a place to stay if she ever gets up here to Minneapolis. 🙂

    Another note for BSG games. There’s a fan mod of an older game called Homeworld2 that has a mod called BSG:Fleet Commander. It’s a bit unpolished being a mod as far as the install goes, but it looks FANTASTIC. You can see game clips on YouTube if you search for it. Very cool.

    It was great to have a bit of a throwback to Firefly this week. I’ve likely said it before, but Firefly brought me back to scifi after a long hiatus. And everyone I show the pilot is just floored by the;

    “Ok!!…thats IT!!! I’m not playing anymore!….I want… ”

    Dead fed. Just like that. Mal is so bad-ass. And the little grin on Jayne’s face is just so great.

    I was also thinking about an earlier post about “art” and the Transformers and Micheal Bay and all that. It’s important to remember that even our beloved Battlestar Galactica is considered crappy TV by some people. People undeserving of our respect, compassion, and breathing air of course, but it’s true. I’ve heard it called “Soap opera for guys” before. (And she’s a great gal too normally). Gotta keep things in perspective I guess

    Minnesotia Actual

  69. Pike says:

    Minnesotia, Heh, my GF refers to BSG as my “stories.” (She’s a fan of FF, so she’ll come around eventually.)

  70. Melissa (aka the Fair Melissa) says:

    I was watching Firefly last night and in the episode “trash” you can see a colonial viper fly by in the background. When I first saw it, I didn’t believe it, so I had to go back and pause. Yes indeed. There it was. Seriously cool the love these shows have for each other.

  71. BoxytheBoxed says:

    nice intro pike i think
    very funy

  72. Ace says:

    FYI — Re: The conversion about good/evil, blond/brunette. In the new bionic woman show the good guy (woman) is brunette and the bad guy (woman) is a blond.

  73. The Fair Melissa says:

    Speaking of small “e” evil twins, Chuck I sat behind yours on BART this morning. He was wearing black. That’s how I know he’s evil (as in the fruits of the devil).

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