April 1, 2007

GWC Podcast #36

We’re still reeling from BSG’s explosive season three finale — as you are, too, considering the volume of great calls for this week’s listener podcast. We took as many calls as we could, and we’re planning a mid-week bonus ‘cast to fit in a few more. Highlights: We expound upon the concept of artist’s ideas vs. audience concepts (in light of RDM’s recent podcasts and interviews); discuss Starbuck, Headbuck, and the identity of the final (maybe) Cylon; speculate further on the history and physio-religious makeup of the BSG universe; question the existence of “creative ether;” love on Romo Lampkin some more; run down the possibilities of what relation “Watchtower” might have to our world; and wonder if the “final four” really are what they think they are. We also talk a bit about the GWC “support group” re-watch, which starts this week.

35 Responses to "GWC Podcast #36"
  1. BoxytheBoxed says:

    i did call prob frogott to leave my name woops

  2. Zack says:

    Hey guys another great podcast! BTW! When you were talking about the blood tests that Baltar performed, remember back to Tigh me up, Tigh me down at the end when Baltar tested Ellen and Head six asked, “What did her test REALLY say?” and Baltar says “Ill never tell.” Im not saying she is Final Five or anything but thats kinda weird, and maybe just food for thought.

  3. BoxytheBoxed says:

    A boxy idea: have a frak oarty for stargate its how im getting through the 10 months, no theories, no sex(exceptDaniel/Vala), no baltar and no cylons/z/s/z/s/z/s great cast ireally dont nhave anything else to say so say we all

  4. Lt. Slingshot says:

    Hey GWC. I was just listening to the cast and the speculation that Baltar may know something about the final cylons from his blood tests. While I think that could have been viable plot option for awhile, once he and Deanna started their little quest to find the final five on the algae planet, I think that pretty much rules out using those blood tests in future stories. It’s pretty clear he doesn’t know.

  5. Klucky says:

    Early on in the podcast:

    I can’t help but feel that the cylon/human divide comes more from actions then ideology. Humans enslaved the cylons, and the cylons murdered upwards of 12 billion humans, and “raped” some unknown number. This isn’t some “shallow” rift that can heal with diversity seminars and some cross-species handholding.

  6. Klucky says:

    After listening to it all and compiling all my thoughts:

    Concerning Felix, how can people continue to ride Gaeta for lying? He was the nicest guy in the fleet for two years, and look how it turned out for him. Remember the last time he did the really honorable thing that was situational stupid? He still feels guilty about that I’d bet. How can we hold him to different standards then everyone else? Total hypocrisy (though I’m biased, and I don’t like anyone talking smack about my boy!)

    And Lee? Maybe you and Helo get away with murder (literally) but Jammer/Gaeta/at-least-eleven-others were held to their decisions. Whether you agree or disagree with the methods (disagree!!!!!) they were still held to their mistakes. I know Lee likely didn’t know about the Circle (and the fact that it has stayed unknown makes Adama look like an idiot. He doesn’t know his XO tried to kill his Tactical Officer? He only sees them every day! Didn’t he used to be a good CO?) But the writers should have. It’s like that “Hero” episode. The PTB have forgotten their own cannon, AGAIN!

    And the final four? If we don’t follow the rules we set up, or at least have a reasonable explanation, they why bother? Kara being the product of a clandestine affair between pilot stud Will Adama and some random chick Marine would have been shocking, and made as much since. Getting hit in the face with the illogical isn’t new or exciting. Soaps do it all the time. In truth I think the whole Final Five nonsense was just an attempt to cover RDM’s desire to see the inner workings of the Cylons. Then he realized he told us there are 12 models.
    (Apparently going:
    “Previously on Battlestar Galactica!
    Six: ::mid lecture:: … So to stop the insurgency I think we should —
    Baltar: didn’t you tell me you were the sixth model in a run of twelve?
    Six: Yes I did. ::happy something penetrated his pill induced fog, even if it took two years::
    Baltar: ::blithely unaware:: Where are the other five?
    Six: We had them boxed 14 seconds after we started chasing the fleet.
    Baltar: oh?
    Six: They were efficient, made good choices, all got along well and thought playing cat and mouse with humans for three years would be a waste of time.
    Baltar: I see. Obviously they had to be stopped before that kind of thinking spread.”
    was a little too much, even for them.) In my opinion he should have saved the in-depth (and oh so boring) trip to the disco Basestar of luve for after the last reveal, or atleast spent some time to plan what he would do. I’m not hard to please, but “There are five more, we just forgot about them,” was lame. In truth, I haven’t been impressed with all that much so far.

    However, as Felix Gaeta is my favorite character, and seeing as how you spent some time talking about him in depth I give my undying love onto the episode.

    Sorry about the rant. I try not to care so much, but my shiny new show has turned into a rusty tangle of show. Sometimes it seems like I only stick around to keep up with the fanfiction, but then something fun happens (like Gaeta stabbing Baltar with a pen) that keeps me from just reading the recaps and calling it shot.

  7. 13th Cylon says:

    Dang/ craap! I forgot to call in, so I’ll be sure to come up with some clever theory on par with the Racetrack one for this midweek podcast… And just in this time I was typing, I’ve figured it out. Prepare your mind to be blown.

    And Klucky- the idea of them being rogue Cylonz who got boxed (all except for the models still alive) is one I will put the seal of approval on. It is the most plausable, mainly because the numbering of the Cylonz. They wouldn’t have gone “Well we made 7 Cylonz, let’s make the last 5 totally radical”. If that was the case, we would have the 7 baddies (minus Athena) numbered 1 through 7. Perhaps those models abandoned their Cylon heritage and embraced the idea that they’re human. Man oh man, Klucky, you’ve got my noggin’ juices going!

  8. Armando says:

    Hey guys-

    Wow! You guys sound different when it’s earlier in the day! 😉

    Anyway…I’m listening to the podcast right now and wanted to make a quick off-topic comment re: Chuck’s comments on 2001 and Classical music. Rights issues are the same regardless of genre and, in fact, 2001 uses two pieces by Hungarian avant-garde composer Gyorgi Ligeti (whose music is, if you ask me, cool as all get out but which, granted, might not be everybody’s cup of tea), who only died last summer and was made something of a household name by that film. Kubrick went on to use an earlier piece of his in Eyes Wide Shot (that annoying repeated piano thing in that movie? THAt’S a Ligeti piece).

    What happened with 2001 was that Kubrick totally rejected Alex North’s score and replaced it with his temp track. North, sadly, did not find out about this until he attended the film’s premiere, which is a pretty scummy thing of Kubrick to do to him, even if the film works better with the found music.

    Thus endeth the lecture…

  9. riza says:

    A few thoughts and questions about the division between cylons and humans because of cylon-immortality.
    Do they age? I suspect not, so how would that effect cylon/human relations over the ages? More immediate examples are hylon couples like Sharon and Helo, and Cally and the Chief (Lord of the Rings elves and humans anyone)? This issue is possibly new for the cylons themselves as they seem to have only existed for about 40 years.

  10. Armando says:

    Do cylons age? You’d think not…except now we know that Tigh is a cylon and he has certainly aged. I’ve also operated under the assumption that cylons have only been around for about 40 years, but in looking back there really is nothing within continuity (unless there’s some stuff outside the show, like books or comics, that count as canon. And please, gods, tell me there isn’t! I don’t want BSG to become what my beloved “Star Wars” has become!) to say that cylons weren’t created centuries before the first cylon war and took that long to develop sentience (how long does it take for a machine to develop sentience anyway? About ten years ago there was a book out called “The Age of Spiritual Machines”–I forget who wrote it, alas–that predicted sentience within a generation or so. So far I’ve seen little signs pointing in that direction, at least in everyday life) and rebel.

  11. Steve Lunny says:

    Since all 4 of the new cylons just happened to be aboard the very few ships that escape the original attack, is it being considered that they were in fact allowed to escape for some future purpose?

    If this is the case, that decision could not have been made by the known humanoid cylons since they were also in the dark about the final 5 identities.

    just a thought!


  12. riza says:

    I think that the fact that the four are among the surviving colonials goes to the idea that the whole scenario is fated and is destined to occur. As far as I can guess, the other seven cylons didn’t know who the five are, because it doesn’t seem that they would have left them alone and among the humans. And then, is Starbuck a cylon? It is beautiful writing that she is/was such an unsuspecting mess in her personal life, but is really the instrument that has and will help the fleet find earth (and maybe unite the cylons and humans?).

  13. Requiem says:

    Woah there! Great podcast as usual. But, (since I go to a Women’s College) I’ve got tease you: What’s up with only using male callers? Common Audra! Pick out a female caller! 😉 (Kidding Kidding)
    Seriously though, all of the callers had very interesting things to say, and I throughly enjoyed hearing the three of you discuss them. I got a kick out of you guys proving that, thanks to Starbuck and Ellen, we’d all be Cylons if there was a STC!

  14. Trak101 says:

    Speaking of STC,
    Chuck, I think, was under the assumption that STC could be spread like a “traditional” STD. Instead, I think the caller from San Francisco thought of STC as a direct and non-transferable infection… like an innoculation. You can get a flu shot but you can’t transfer your immunity to anyone else.

    But on further examination, the idea still falls apart.

    With a direct infection scenario, we’d end up with a different set of Final Four.
    So, let’s see.
    Tyrol got it from Boomer. Ok, there’s a direct link.
    Then that would mean that Helo’s been “innoculated” by Athena, and Baltar by Caprica 6 and D’anna and Gina, and then Laura by the cord blood of Hera (which would have been only half cylon, right? So a limited effect?).

    After that it get’s murky. Unless Ellen was a Cylon (and that is probably not so) then Tigh had to catch it from someone else that we haven’t met yet.

    Starbuck couldn’t have been a Cylon under this scenario because that would make Lee a cylon. So Anders must have caught it from Tory whose back story we know almost nothing about so she could be a real Cylon.

    At the end of the day, we would have a final four of Tyrol, Baltar, Helo and possibly Anders.

    OK, I’ve thought about this wayyy too much.

    (Love the podcasts.)

  15. The 13th Cylon says:

    Alright, I did it! My wonderful theory about a fan fave. The sound is probably crappy since I did it on my cell (land line wanted some craap about axcess codes or some jargon I had no idea about). I really don’t even remember if I introduced myself, but you’ll know it was me after you hear it. That was nerve racking, especially after hearing the listener from Scotland (there’s a ton of people listening to this! lol

    Is there a mid week podcast or was that some “Head Chuck” that wrote that?

    Oh, one other thing, I’m still holding out hope that we get a new set of webisodes. lol

  16. Aximill says:

    The STC idea is a cool take and it is somewhat plausible. Here is my take:

    Tigh got the STC from Ellen, who was infected by Cavil (via the twist).

    Tyrol got it from Boomer.

    Torrie got it from Anders, who in turn was infected by Kara, who was probably raped by Leoben (creepy Leoben, it seems likely).

    Now, yes, it has been made that Kara and Ellen have gotten around the fleet. The key is however when Kara and Ellen had gotten infected, which was during the occupation. It is highly unlikely that Kara and Ellen had sex with a skin-job prior to the occupation since both have the connection and would likely know who was a Cylon. Granted this is assuming some points, but hey it can happen. So, since they did not have the STC before the occupation, they would not infect others with a Cylon disease.

    Noe, given all that, I offer something to shoot down my idea. Callie, Lee, and Baltar, are people who have had sex with a Cylon, or someone would would have the STC, yet they did not hear the music. Why? I have no idea. Probably would have some more long winded explaination like I gave just before.

  17. 13th Cylon says:

    I’ve been thinking about STDs in the fleet the past few seasons. That’s what the Cylonz could do to kill off the humans. People in the fleet get around. I was thinking that STDs don’t exist in the fleet, but Hotdog’s rash leads me to think otherwise.

  18. Todd says:

    This is an awsome site. Like the comments too. This Finale was one of the most intense finale’s I’ve ever seen. I like the idea that more crew were discovered to be cylons because it makes it more believable. The fact the Colonel Tigh is one just gives me abdominal cramps from laughing to hard and long. I just have one question for anyone to answer…where can you get the Bt4’s version of “All Along the Watchtower.”

  19. Pike says:

    Todd, I’m pretty sure that there will be a seasonal soundtrack available. The vocalist is Bear’s brother.

    Anyone else, if you were hipped to this site by Howard Stern, give us an idea of what he said to recommend it. Was it a mention in passing, or what? And when, exactly, did he mention it?

    The reason we’re curious is that this site has seen a steady increase over the last season (the only season they’ve covered) up until about two weeks ago when everything went geometric.

  20. The 13th Cylon says:

    Pike- No idea, but if you haven’t listened to his interview with Tricia, you should. He was quite funny and had a lot of good things to say about the show and (naturally) Mrs. Helfer. He kept talking about the scene from “Tigh Me Up…” with Baltar doing Head Six in front of Starbuck lol. But hey, what else would you expect from him?

  21. Mersh says:

    I am in serious disagreement with any notion that the reveal of the Finals in the season finale was some kind of misdirection. The last two podcasts have been tossing around the theory that they aren’t really Cylons so much that I just couldn’t stop myself from posting a reply to it. I really think you’re overthinking this. I can’t recall any moments in the show’s run where something that important was revealed and later turned out to be some kind of trick on the audience. Adama really was shot by Boomer. The nuke really did go off, blowing up a bunch of ships right before they settled on New Caprica. They really did jump forward a year after settling on New Caprica.

    Maybe I’m so resistant to the idea that they aren’t Final Five cylons that I just can’t believe they’d reveal something this amazing and this cool in such a fantastically cool and surprising way that if it weren’t true, it’s be a tremendous waste of time and energy! AND COOLNESS!

  22. Armando says:


    I’m with you. Except Starbuck didn’t really die, which I was not just ready to believe but was rabidly defending as a courageous artistic decision on RDM’s part. (Not that I didn’t squeal with delight at seeing her again at the end of the finale, mind you.) I’m inclined to continue thinking they are cylons too, but I’m open to a bit of skepticism as well.

  23. BoxytheBoxed says:

    squell with delight hun i was pissed i hate starbuck her destiny was to die DIE i still dont think that tigh is a cylon ist not true
    What is gonna happen
    Starbuck:its ok lee
    Lee:your so hot*starts drolling*i miss you
    SB:HAHAAHA frak you im just in your head woohoo

  24. Todd says:

    I can agree alsowith Mersh, but you know how it is in this business. It’s all about misdirection. I know Starbuck wasn’t killed! We’ll probably find something out like: Their sensor were wrong and there was too much interference with the atmosphere which led them to think she would be crushed and I’m sure they’ll find a way to explain the explosion too. On the other hand it wouldn’t surprise me if they went the other way either. As long as they make it plausable. Even though this isn’t the original story line you would think the creators of this new story line would keep Starbuck a human. I remember when it started I was a little disappointed that Starbuck was a girl because the original Starbuck was a pimp!! ha ha. It would have brought some comic relief to it, however, that might detract from the darkness that has revived this series from the original one. In all seriousness though they took a gamble with this one and I think it paid off. Starbuck is a kick-ass pilot that doesn’t put up with anybody’s crap, she can hold her liquor, and take punches with the best of them.

    I like the Dr. Baltar character too. He’s come a long way from his minor role as the doctor on Deep Space Nine. I didn’t even mind the pill popping either. I watch House and it cracks me up how he can take so many vicoden and still stay on top of his game and even his own collegues are aware of this issue, but bringing it back to Battlestar Galactica, Baltar was still on top of his game and he did bring some of that comic relief I was referring to earlier, like the time he got busted by Starbuck and it looked like he was “taking care of himself.” I was disappointed with the weasle president he became; taking pills, staying drunk, and balling every chick he could find. I liked the deceptive Baltar that always seemed to be one step ahead of everyone else with the Cylon maiden advising him along the way. He’ll rise to power again though, like someone else mentioned.

    And to answer Pike’s question, I was just browsing the internet trying to find the song (All Along The Watchtower) on the season finale aparently it isn’t released yet. I thought it was a cool remake, but browsing through I stumbled on to this website and was amazed at how many people are into this thing. I mean I understand why, it’s just nice to know other people like the same show you do. I’ve always been afraid that any “New” show that comes on, and I like it, will get canceled. So, I’m always on pins and needles wondering if it will return next season, but I don’t have that problem with BSG.

  25. Largento says:

    I think the Fifth is Ellen. Moore liked the character too much to abandon her. And obviously, the other Four know who it is and the only person that gets mentioned is Ellen. “My Gods,” says Tigh, “What about Ellen?”

    Also, Baltar didn’t know about any other Cylons in the fleet. Remember he threatened to kill the Chief if Boomer didn’t tell him how many other Cylons there were in the fleet. At least, it was something like that. My memory of it isn’t great. I don’t remember what her answer was.

  26. Pike says:

    Todd, “I’ve always been afraid that any “New” show that comes on, and I like it, will get canceled.”

    LOL. My GF and I have a phrase when talking about shows. “We love it. It’s doomed.” I half suspect that the reason BSG has hung in there as long as it has is because she doesn’t see it (mostly for schedule reasons.)

    Largento, I read that as Tigh going “Holy Frak, I killed Ellen because she betrayed the resistance to the Cylons. And I’m a Cylon. WTFBBQ?!”

  27. the 17th cylon says:

    hey, so this is kind off the wall, but in between pining for more battlestar eps and watching the miniseries, i decided to watch some decidedly less intelligent television. the 6th season of “friends”. ironically enough, one of the characters was talking about the fact that in 2030 there will be computers as advanced as a human brain, so theoretically, you could download you thoughts and conciousness on a computer hard drive and live on forever as a machine…hmmm….i’m pretty sure that provides no direction towards how that cylons advanced so far, but it gave me the idea (which i’m sure other people have had) that maybe the cylons didn’t just evolve on their own, they evolved with the help of some sort of evil-doer who for some reason thought it would be cool to have evil machines that can’t really ever be destroyed, walking around, looking like humans.

    So, in short: I think the cylons evolved with the help of some other collaborator, because even though logic doesn’t always apply in sci-fi, how else would the cylons have gotten so far without the aid of middle man to help them with the computer technology to progress into skinjobs.

  28. Armando says:

    Oh my God, 17th! Chandler is…a Cylon?


  29. Mike P says:

    Todd wrote, “I like the Dr. Baltar character too. He’s come a long way from his minor role as the doctor on Deep Space Nine.”

    I must not be following you here — you know it’s not the same actor, right? Although RDM has said somwhere (a podcast? interview?) that he was “pleasantly mortified” or something like that when someone pointed out how similar James Callis is to Alexander Siddig. I happened to like Dr. Bashir a lot, and don’t think he was a minor character at all, but I also agree with you that Baltar is a very different and needless to say darker kind of doctor — although, as RDM says in the mini commentary, you can’t help kind of liking the guy, either, because Callis plays the part with such humor.

  30. 13th Cylon says:

    James Callis has said that he goes to conventions and all the time people will hand him a picture of Dr. Bashir and the dude who played him will often get Baltar stuff to sign. lol

  31. Armando says:

    Dr. Bashir? I have no idea what you guys are talking about! (I hope I don’t get kicked out of the forum for that.) 😉

  32. Mike P says:

    Armando: “Deep Space 9” is the Star Trek series that RDM wrote for (and maybe helped create? I don’t recall) about a decade ago. He wrote many of the show’s best episodes, and some of them (I’m thinking “In the Pale Moonlight” especially) have a very BSG-feel to them. In the “frak party” podcast currently up at the Sci Fi Channel website, RDM says that, through all his series, he tries to push the envelope in terms of moral ambiguity, flawed heroes, realism, etc — and DS9 certainly did that for the Trek franchise. At the time I didn’t like it much, but looking back, I see it was a great new direction for the franchise to go. Too bad it didn’t “take” and that we got “Voyager” afterward (in my opinon, a far inferior show).

    But I digress! Any other BSGers/Trekkers (ies?) out there who can think of RDM Trek episodes that “feel” like BSG?

  33. Scottish Jamie says:

    I’m having a real dilemma about who the final cylon is. It has to be a big reveal, it’s not going to be some random punter, e.g. “Deck hand number 18”. For me it comes down to either Roslin or Starbuck:

    Having re-watched Maelstrom I’m certain Starbuck’s Viper is clearly shown to explode. It appears to have been destroyed by the storm – so what chance would an ejected human have?

    If Lee is seeing Headbuck then it could be Roslin…she is back on the Camala and having visions, so she is used to dismissing audio and visual that she thinks aren’t really there. Could she have heard the song and just ignored it? She did have a wobble when they jumped to the Lion’s Head Nebula, just as the other four were disoriented too. Could she also have experienced the “innate” knowledge that she is a Cylon and put that down to the Camala too? However she has cancer and the Cylon do not appear to suffer from normal human illnesses.

    My head hurts….

  34. Armando says:

    Thanks, Mike. I know Deep Space 9, I’ve just never watched more than a couple of episodes so I have no idea who Dr. Bashir is. I know there’s a lot of crossover here with fans of the Trek franchise, so I was trying to make a joke (I’ve never really been into Trek at all. I’m more of a Star Wars guy myself. Not that one has to like one or the other, of course. That’s just where my tastes drew me when I was a child and I never quite felt attracted to other sci fi until Moore’s version of BSG came along).

  35. Mike P says:

    Hey, Armando — Sorry. I didn’t realize you were joking. I feel frakking stupid now! 🙂 That’s the problem with cyber communication, eh? No tone of voice, no body language… Sorry!

    I would still definitely recommend you try RDM’s DS9 episodes. He also wrote I think all of *one* episode of “Voyager,” which was dark and edgy, and then they fired him. 😛

    Also, he did an HBO show called “Carnivale” which has thematic and atmospheric affinity with BSG. I enjoyed the few episodes I watched, but am not sticking with it for now on Netflix — after all, there is BSG to rewatch! 🙂

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