And You Were There, And You…
I had an interesting conversation the other day with someone experienced in screenwriting (and whose writing has actually made it to screen) about BSG’s Season 3 cliffhanger. He said he thought the ending, in which four well-established characters are revealed (as far as we know) to be Cylons, was a “cop-out.” His reasoning? Writers who have led the audience to be so invested in these characters shouldn’t suddenly pull the carpet out from under us and say something akin to: “Psych! It was all a dream!” I know that creative writers often adhere to this concept, since a move like this can cause the audience’s disillusionment, alienation, or a sense of having been betrayed. (These are my own interpretations of that argument.)
But I can’t help but disagree when it comes to BSG. I’m sure the rule is a good one for most writing, but I think that the suspense of the “Cylon reveal” -ever since we’ve known Cylons can look exactly like people – has been a significant and exciting aspect of the show. I don’t feel cheated by this revelation (perhaps it’s because I think they’re good Cylons who want to help humanity get to Earth) – but instead I find it exhilarating to be in the same shoes as these characters who are simultaneously discovering the truth.
We’re all fans of the show, so I’m not expecting overt criticism of the writing or anything, but I’d love to know how you all respond to this question.
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I also don’t agree. This was to be expected, yet unexpected (as to who it would be).
the title of the post is why Audra is my hero….um….the “cylon reveal” being what it is to the show is what makes me really not want to believe that the four *are* really cylons…because that would then leave us with only one…and that would mean the series is fast coming to a close…and golldarnit, crushinator, i’m just not ready for that. i don’t feel cheated, but i feel like we didn’t get any real answers either. I will say this: I actually did, for a moment, somewhere during my first watch of the finale think that someone was about to wake up and find out that this whole last season was a dream…and that Baltar shot J.R…or was it Helo?
I think that the only reason people would and should feel cheated is if the writers imply they had it all planned out, from the beginning, rather than having it be a seasonal arc (at best) for those specific characters. More than likely it grew out of writers meetings midway through the season.
Arguements against that (most notably) is the slight Tori has gotten through most of season 3. I would like to think they would have invested more time developing her character if she to truly be a jaw dropping Cylon reveal,
Anders was only developed as a byproduct of Starbuck UNTIL her death. Again, how mindbending is it?
Tigh and Tyrol are *acceptable* Cylon reveals only in that they have introduced Tyrols recent interest in religion, or least in the temple. Tigh works because it is the most outta leftfield (now they just have to make it plausible).
The only reason I pose the fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants approach is I have not and will never believe that George Lucas had all Star Wars mapped out as he claims (Luke and Leia smootches?)
I admit that I didn’t want Tyrol or Tigh to be Cylons. I also didn’t want Starbuck to be one, but we don’t know if she is one yet, so who knows? I guess if they are “good” Cylons I could accept it. This is just strange to me, though. I guess I’ll get used to it.
Let’s face it. RDM & gang set out to turn conventional SciFi TV writing on its ear with this series.
I think what they’ve done absolutely fits the pattern of the rest of the show, and think about how gut-wrenching it will be if one of these four actually goes rogue on Galactica/Colonial One. Think about how you felt about Boomer in season one, from the reveal in the miniseries, through the blackouts and bombs of “Water”. Think about how you sat on the edge of your seats wanting things to work out for her.
It gives all four of these characters an edge. And it fits the conventions of the show. Far from being a cop out, with five Cylons left to reveal, you had to know that some of the show’s sacred cows were going to be Cylons. It was inevitable.
Now here’s the final question. RDM has made it clear that he sees a clear end point to the series. He spent season three teasing us with the reveal of the final five and absolutely revealed four of them. This is after taking a full two seasons to reveal the three (Cavell, Simon, D’Anna) that weren’t revealed in the miniseries.
How many seasons do we have left? I’m laying odds there’s a 50-50 chance Season for is the last, about a 90-10 chance that this thing will end by the fifth season.
It’s not a cop-out and no way is it going to change these characters uh… character. Tigh said it himself. He is Saul Tigh, military man of 40 years, best friend of Admiral William Adama. This revelation won’t change him. It won’t change Tyrol either. All four of the new cylons witnessed their loved ones die because of the cylon attacks. There is no logical reason for any of them to change because of this new reveal.
p.s. where is Ron Moore’s podcast?!
Talk to me again when the series ends.
No, I definitely have some thoughts.
Initially, I was taken aback. I found myself partially buying into the reader speculation that RDM is just toying with us.
However, I had already convinced myself that Tyrol was a Cylon. Tory and Anders are characters that tend to stay on the periphery for me personally.
The real shock here is Tigh. What possible explanations could the offer for his Cylonity.
If these four beign Cylons is well written and integral to the plot I’m all for the simultaneous reveal. As I’ve said before, if the writers feel the story can be told in four seasons, the one by one reveals lose their impact if the story can move ahead on its own.
The real concerns I have right now are related to Starbuck. I’m not sure which option will leave me feeling uncheated. I’m enthused at her being back but I’m really going to need an fabulous, airtight explanation for it.
I’m sure how the boards work here, because I’ve just started posting, but I was wondering, how do spoilers work on here? Because I was going to comment on the cylon cop-out issue, but I’m afraid that what I might say might be considered a spoiler. If RDM confirmed/denied anything, is that considered as a spoiler (and I’m not saying he did, in case any of you are worried that I ruined it…)
After viewing the middle section of the third season; I was left feeling dissatisfied with the direction of the plot. However, I think there is a difference between the writers being lazy by faking everyone out and using the elements at hand available to them.
I believe it’s important for a show like Galactica to leave certain elements open for additional plot developments. Trying to tell an enormous story over several seasons, but not sacrificing the punch of individual episodes is difficult. The writers didn’t display their lack on ingenuity, but rather, their ability to move with the ebb of the show.
Personally, I view this finale’ to be a sort of return to the “proper” plot line, after digressing to the love quadrangle for ten episodes.
Again, the site and podcasts are great. Funny enough it is like a support group. Thank you for all you do Chuck, Sean & Audra.
Good eve
-ian
I feel like one of the questions from the get go was who among us is a Cylon. There’s no “regular” show comparison for this, really. I vote it as not being a cop-out.
17th Cylon- There’s a lot of things that RDM has said which would definitely be spoilers. We TRY to only talk about the stuff we’ve seen on TV. Of course some rumors make their way here (like something happening to Starbuck a few episodes back), but we generally like to smother rumors and spoilers with a pillow. As Chuck says at the start of every episode “We do not discuss spoilers on Galactica Watercooler; however we do discuss the series entire canon including and up to the most recently broadcast episode” or something like that.
I don’t believe the reveal was a cop out for two main reasons. One – the reveal should be with characters we are invested with. Aside from Sharon at the end of the mini-series, the reveals weren’t really epic. This was the perfect moment to turn it up a notch. Tigh and Tyrol are major players. That’s surprise enough. Tori hasn’t been around that long to really be a “betrayal” as your friend put it. And Anders…some of us saw it coming even though we were in denial over the possibility. And two – only four were absolute reveals. If it was a cop out, they would have revealed all five. And I do believe these cylons are meant to aid the humans in some way, but their destiny also lies with Hera and how Hera fits into the whole scheme of things.
While I loved the episode, and thought it was one of BSG’s top five ever, I reserve judgement on the Cylon reveals.
They are simply too convenient and too difficult to explain for me to just accept them the way I did Boomer. I mean, Tigh? In the miniseries they established that the skinjobs weren’t even invented when Tigh was in the military. Meaning Tigh died and was replaced?
The Cylon reveals obviously aren’t what they seem. If they are, then yes, this is a copout.
But I doubt it.
I don’t really feel it was a cop out mainly due to the fact I don’t really feel “cheated” by the reveals. To me, if they had made the remaining Cylons new characters we didn’t know (like ethereal beings of light or something), THAT would have been a cop out. I would have just looked at them and be like, “Oh… okay.”
Now having Tigh and Chief them folks Cylons may have made you angry or mad or even feeling betrayed, but at least it made you feel something. It got a reaction out of the audience and it did something rare which every writer always strives for but rarely accomplishes: it makes the audience feel exactly what the characters are feeling. People felt confused, weirded out, scared, betrayed, disbelief, etc. But so did these characters. That’s the point. This isn’t a simple matter of someone saying something off screen, the characters turning to look who said it, and boom, that’s the Cylon (ala Brother Cavil).
Making 4 of the 5 confirmed new Cylons characters that we are heavily (Tigh and Chief) or at least somewhat (Anders and Tori) invested in just ADDS to the drama of both the Cylon reveal and heavily complicates the characters themselves which is always what BSG has been about.
Personally, I thought that the ending of Season 3 was about par for the course with the modern BSG. We got thrown a curveball but the writers are loosely following the Original Galactica (OG) plot lines.
RDM has confirmed in more than one post – season interview that the 4 are definitely Cylons so the speculation on that subject should be over. What the speculation should be and is (in my mind) what will be the actions of the Final 4 (we still don’t know who the 5th Cylon is although I’m sure the smart money is Starkbuck with Laura Roslin a close second) now that they know what they really are.
As for the return of Starbuck, I had a feeling that Katee Sackhoff wasn’t in the unemployment line because if you look at the cast credits in the succeeding episodes after Malestrom aired, there is break in the cast names where here name would have normally appeared.
When I think of the season 3 cliffhanger for BSG, I think to myself “Lucy, you gots some ‘splainin to do” as the writers and RDM have painted themselves into a serious corner. I anxiously await all the reasons for the revealations of the final episode – as I have learned one thing about RDM and his merry band of writers; freed from the boundaries laid down by Gene Roddenberry, RDM is a slippery customer who bears watching – he is big on symbolism but doesn’t do it lightly. If the Final 4 heard Along the Watchtower, then there will be an explaination. Anybody notice that the Final 4 all came together around a square (ostensibly some sort of cargo elevator) on the floor.
Rube Says:
“RDM has confirmed in more than one post – season interview that the 4 are definitely Cylons so the speculation on that subject should be over. What the speculation should be and is (in my mind) what will be the actions of the Final 4 (we still don’t know who the 5th Cylon is although I’m sure the smart money is Starkbuck with Laura Roslin a close second) now that they know what they really are.”
While I tend to agree with you, RDM also told us Starbuck was dead three weeks ago…we now know how permanent that was.
Not a cop-out. Nothing on this show is without a point and based on what we have seen, shouldn’t we have faith that they will just bowl us over in season 4? I am a believer.
I am w Audra that the 4 are GOOD. Maybe Cylons, maybe not.
I doubt Roslin is a Cylon. I dont think Starbuck is a Cylon. She is a Ball of Light (BOL) a la the 78 show. The glow on her face and around her viper was not just ambient light when she saw Lee at the end of Crossroads 2.
Comments of BOL Starbuck???
Wow, OK, this is just off the top of my head. I’d love to cite everyone who’s posted already, but there were too many good comments, so forgive me.
First off, RDM lives by Joss Whedon’s maxim “Always respect the integrity of your universe, unless you think of something really cool.”
Second, by his own admission, he writes in about ten episode cycles. That is, he doesn’t really know where he’s going to be after about the halfway mark on any given season. (that said, he has said he know how it all ends, which will take about four episodes.)
Third, by extension, he doesn’t know where he’s going to go after any given season break. That includes this one. Any statement he makes is suspect (although, definitive statements, like “the four are actually cylons” tend to hold true.)
Fourth, my point is, they pulled something out of their behinds (Tigh as Cylon?!), but they are secure in the knowledge that they have a whole lot of time to figure out how to unpaint themselves from that corner. I suspect that’s part of their writing process these days…
It is not a cop-out. As others have said — like Pike says, I wish I could quote everyone — the fact that “the Cylons look like us now” was established from the miniseries as a part of this show. The person who made the comment comparing the show to the “Wizard of Oz” ending (movie, not L. Frank Baum’s book! ) is simply not familiar (based on this comment) with the premise of the show.
I suspect Tigh is not a totally out of their pants, out of the blue choice, either, even though the chronology doesn’t quite work, unless the Cylons were planning this back when they were “metal toasters.” Upon rewatching the miniseries, I think the very first person to explicitly spell out the consequences of the Cylons’ looking like us — “They could be anyone, any one of us” — is none other than our own Saul Tigh. I will be re-watching very closely to see whether some groundwork has been laid right under our nose — which would be very like RDM and the writers to do.
I understand what he’s saying. I’ve taken a few screenwriting classes and I was tought three big rules. Don’t have your character narrate thier feelings, and thoughts, never use a Deus Ex Machina, and never cheat.
btw, a Deus Ex Machina is when a story has a character come in in the end and explain everything that’s going on, or randomly saves the day, as opposed to having your characters doing it on thier own through plot development.
I disagree though that BSG is “cheating”, or a lack of writing. They did it very well, and all except for Tigh the reveals all make some measure of sense. Tigh thus is the huge anomoly and has huge implications for the show. For me, cheating would be if it was all a dream, or if it was some kind of Matrix type World.
I get what he’s saying though
I’ve heard the same as Pike, that RDM writes in rough cycles of 10 episodes, which means when he was writing the beginning of this season, he probably hadn’t decided on these four reveals, which makes it seem like somewhat of a cheat. If it wasn’t planned out from the beginning then it’s like he’s winging it and making it up as he goes, like this isn’t set in the main arc, but he’ll just make it fit by the end. It does feel like he’s just gone ‘which four can we say are cylons and write our way out of’.
But as others have commented, cylon reveals are an established aspect of this show. It’s not like it’s all been a dream and someone just wakes up the next morning, that would be completely out of the blue. But with this show we were told there are 12 cylon models from the start and we knew that there had to be some surprises in there somewhere.
So although it might seem like a cop-out when compared to general rules of writing, I think it works within the framework of the show. Like the fact that Starbuck’s appearance could be considered a deus ex machina, except for the fact that we will get some kind of explanation next season (I’ll kill someone if we don’t), which will be reasonably rational and will keep the plot going. I think the explanation and exploration of their real backstories and characters will be the defining characteristic between this being a cop-out and just being a really cool cliffhanger.
I guess the only thing that might be considered a cheat is that so many of the Cylon models were aboard Galatica from the beginning: Boomer, Tyrol, Tigh and, perhaps, Starbuck. Doral was there to cover the decomissioning in the miniseries, and had been there for quite a while (about a week — I am assuming he is the one who planted the Cylon device in the DRADIS console, and just wasn’t aware of it — much as Boomer wasn’t aware, at first, of her sabatoge).
Were the Cylons banking on the fact that Galactica would survive the attack?
Mike P: Knowing what we know now, that is a good question regarding the galactica’s survival. It seems that the F5 Cylons are a different faction from the other 7. If that’s the case, they may have engineered it so that Galactica will survive – or maybe they weren’t that specific but maybe they do have a counter plan, if you will, that was to thwart the other seven’s plans of wiping out humanity.
That being said, I have no idea if the F5 are actively working against the seven (now six, I suppose), or guiding them some how? Or could they be helping to guide both humans and cylons to some end? I don’t think that they are the 5 gods that the temple of 5 was erected to worship although the 5 gods may have great influence over the F5 or even used the F5 to manifest themselves i.e. in the hazy white light visions.
I don’t think the reveals were a cop-out at all. Personally, I think it would have been a cop-out to reveal the Final 5 as brand new characters/guest stars that we know nothing about or have nothing invested in. Besides, RDM has blurred the lines between us/them heroes/villians all along – I kind of resisted this at first because I felt it removed some of the menace/purpose of the Cylons (i.e., “AND THEY HAVE A PLAN”) – but at the same time, it opened a lot of doors too.
Anyway, I think there are way more possibilities by doing what they did – RDM has stated that these are fundamentally different Cylons (and it also appears that the 7 previously revealed have either a vague or incomplete understanding of the Final 5 – certainly, until D’Anna pulled her stunt, none of the 7 even knew who the 5 were, and it seems like D’Anna was boxed before she could tell).
I see this reveal fitting nicely into the context of one of the larger themes in BSG – collectively, you have Cylons vs. the humans, but individually, what defines a person, what does it mean to be Cylon/human/or a blend – and how does that influence your individual loyalities and choices – is probably one of the most fascinating aspects of the show.
So yes, the reveal in some ways seemed out of left field, but I don’t think it was a cop-out. I think we’re in good hands.
Mike P Says:
“Were the Cylons banking on the fact that Galactica would survive the attack?”
What would be interesting is to know what the ‘Master Plan’ is/was and how big a wrench that Galactica’s survival put into it.
Frakking Toaster Says:
“While I tend to agree with you, RDM also told us Starbuck was dead three weeks ago…we now know how permanent that was. ”
We don’t know what her status is right now, Toaster, but yeah.. RDM did pull the wool over our eyes – but I think he can be forgiven for that – would you have tuned back in the following week if you knew that Starbuck was gonna be back because she had “wormholed” out of that cockpit at the last second?
The more I think about it, the more I worry about season 4 and beyond (if there is a beyond) because the corner that RDM and crew have painted themselves into may call for a “Beam me up, Scotty!” solution. One of the things I love about this show is the raw, gritty feel to it versus the candy coated and it will be fine in the end feel that other shows have.
I’m with most of you on this. I don’t feel that the reveal is a cop-out, although I can also understand where your friend is coming from, Audra. My biggest concern, like many, apparently, is with Tigh. He has/had a very strongly defined backstory and we’d actually seen glimpses of his younger life back at the beginning of season two, when he was remembering how Bill saved him by getting him back into the colonial fleet. It’s going to take a lot of explaining to make Tigh’s identity as a cylon plausible. The others? Well, like bloodredguy pointed out, Tory and Anders have been pretty peripheral characters so far (although Anders’ history as a professional athlete in a pretty famous team makes the plausibility of his cylon identity as difficult as Tigh’s, even if WE, the audience, haven’t seen clips of his younger days as a pyramid star), so their backstories are relatively murky. Tyrol is another matter, but then he’s had suspicions of being a cylon since the end of season 2 AND he did just get that urge to walk in “Eye of Jupiter,” which was very weird at the time but makes more sense if he is a cylon (and I tend to believe RDM when he “spoils” it for us…but then, I believed him when he said Kara was dead, period, too). I do have a theory about Tyrol being perhaps a leader among the final five, given his general peace with the revelation and his urging to the others that they accept who they are. I also think, Audra, that you might be on to something and that the final five are more benevolent in their attitude towards humanity than the traditional cylons.
I think Tigh being a Cylon is indeed a cop-out because for him to be one, Cylon doesn’t mean what we think it does. For him to be a machine, he would have been built BEFORE the cylon rebellion. The only explanation is that Cylon really means angel or he was built thousands of years ago, or something like that. this is a cop-out to me because “hey cylons are NOT killer robots from the future, only these 7 are” and that’s not what we were promised. We were promised that there were 12 models built BY THE CHROME JOBS after the first war, and now they want their revenge. That’s not how this is going to fall anymore, and that = disappointment.
It’s alot like saying Paton is a NAZI! except he doesn’t like Hitler, doesn’t think that Arian is the master race, doesn’t speak German, and oh yea fought in the second world war to defeat them. In this context, NAZI means soldier. he was a soldier in the second world war? see? not a cop-out.
Perhaps Tigh’s memory of the first war was implanted. I think in the show’s canon they don’t meet until shortly AFTER the first war. I’m smelling a backstory and hopefully we’ll get some more “young hairy Tigh with two eyes” scenes.
Wackotti says:
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I am not trying to start an argument — I just don’t have the memory for detail that many around here do. Can you cite a specific line or episode that establishes this? As I think about it (again, off the cuff, but having just watched the miniseries twice in the last two weeks), I can’t think of “revenge” being explicitly stated as the motives for what the Cylons are now doing. Yes, they resented being used by humans for humans’ pleasure, but the on-screen text has always talked about the Cylons “evolving,” which, to me, implies something more organic than the “chrome jobs” literally building 12 “skinjobs.”
Not that I have a better alternate explanation of how it happened — but I just wonder, again, if we have ever been told that the “master plan” really was revenge, pure and simple, or eradication of the human race. Maybe it was the master plan of the first seven Cylons (e.g., Six’s line to that *poor baby!* in the pilot, “You won’t have to cry much longer”) — but, if there are factions, then Tigh as a character fits right into that — i.e., actively working (maybe despite himself?) to help the fleet survive.
(Although it is interesting that, three times in the miniseries, Tigh “makes tough calls” that involve wiping out humans: venting the “nacelle” (I know that’s Trek talk, not BSG, but I can’t remember the term now) kills 85 of the deck crew; arguing for leaving the civilians behind near the end (although this doesn’t happen); and calling for the landing bay to be retracted before Apollo and (maybe a Cylon?) Starbuck are aboard — although, that too doesn’t come to pass.)
Thanks to all who responded to my comments. Great forum, great discussion!
I think the explanations/backstories for how the 4 are or came to be Cylons are going to have to engage the more spiritual/religious aspects of the show. I can’t think of a practical/scientific explanation that would be really plausible. It’s been mentioned in previous podcasts that in the BSG world, religion and spirituality have some true basis in reality – i.e., the prophecies / clues to earth, etc. – and so much of the mystery in regard to D’Anna’s efforts to uncover the Final 5 are also draped in mythology and religious symbolism – so I think that any explanation might require delving into the realm of BSG theology as it relates to God, or the Lords of Kobol, etc. – not just a pure scientific explanation.
And there are also hints of shared symbolism/meaning among both humans and Cylons even though they may be vague and not literal, plus shared but also divergent elements to their belief systems – I think this also links to the possibility of some sort of shared origin/shared destiny between human and Cylon that signs/symbols/prophecies would resonate with meaning, for instance Roslin’s, Six, Sharon sharing the same dream – maybe I am over-reaching, but it reminds me of Carl Jung’s archetypes / collective unconscious.
I will reserve judgement. RDM has also said that these four are “fundamentally different” than the other 7. The Tigh question has bothered me as well. My guess is no better than anyone else’s, but I’m guessing the F5 broke off from the others during the original revolt (pre-first cylon war). Even if there were no skinjobs back then, the cylons were obviously sentient and probably had individual personalities. Maybe they could download into human bodies??
I’m basing a lot of my theories on The Book of the Long Sun series by Gene Wolfe. The mysteries are similar to BSG. If someone is looking for a good read over the loooonng break, I can’t recommend it enough.
So, what does “fundamentally different” really mean? Are they incapable of downloading? Would they, as Ken suggest’s, download into another human body and be “surpressed” until something triggers them as appears to have happened here. Or, are they more ehterial in nature and have evolved to no longer even need bodies, but can create one (that might even look different) of their choosing.
Also, so far, the Battleverse has shyed away from “implants” or implanted memory. Balter, perhaps could be the only exception, but there are other more mundane explanations for his behavior so there is not a necessity to go there. I originally thought that implants were the way they were going, but now I don’t believe so. I think the F4 are truly cylon although there type/function remains to be seen.
My “hope” is to agree with Audra that they are benevolent and seem to have more of a will of their own – at least for now. It would just let me feel good about the show that there are good/evil on both sides of this conflict and where one sits at any one moment depends on their point of view of the situation (to paraphrase a wise ol’ Jedi).
What are others thoughts on what fundamentally different means?
Armando:
“I do have a theory about Tyrol being perhaps a leader among the final five, given his general peace with the revelation and his urging to the others that they accept who they are.”
That’s an interesting take, but there’s a simpler explaination. Of the Final 4/5ths, Tyrol was the only one who had been in love with a Cylon. Remember Apollo asking him if he ever thought about Boomer? Methinks the Chief protested too much, there.
Armando:
“… the on-screen text has always talked about the Cylons “evolving,†which, to me, implies something more organic than the “chrome jobs†literally building 12 “skinjobs.—
That’s how I took it, but now I’m not so sure. Remember that evolution is not really the same as self-improvement. There may be an implication that something happened to them out there once they left the colonies. Something V’ger-like, to cite a bad example.
Oops. That last quote was Mike P.
OK. Some thoughts. This show is about identity: what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be “other”, in this case “Cylon”? Assuming that humans have souls, do Cylon’s have souls? If not, is that the difference?
We’ve already gone far on the journey from the mini-series, where the Cylons were simply the enemy. We have at least one known human-Cylon child; we have a Cylon who is totally dedicated to serving in the human military against her own “race”; we have the former elected President of the Colonies living on a Cylon ship and helping a Cylon on a spiritual journey; we have the President saved by the blood of the human-Cylon child. We have Starbuck, with her destiny shown to her by a Cylon. We have the Caprica Six and Sharon who, because of love, tried to change the view of their race about humans.
I think the reveal of the final four is another stage in the exploration of identity. What does it mean that these four people are Cylons? Are they guardians of humanity or are they simply guardians of themselves – they want to survive, so they make sure the humans survive too. Keeping the humans around is necessary for them to live. (Remember that the other models don’t know who they are either, and Three was boxed for her exploration. )
Is this just one more hurdle in the relationship of Saul Tigh and Admiral Adama? Didn’t Adama say “you are my oldest friend, you could never embarrass me.” I think that he means that, that he will stick with Saul Tigh, through the end. If Adama can accept Athena, he can accept Tigh. I think there is something beautiful in Adama’s journey from hatred to acceptance, and I think we will see more of that next season.
What is your identity when no one knows who, or what, you really are? What if you don’t know who, or what, you really are, like Sharon? We’ve seen one way that played out, not well. Now we get to examine that question some more.
About Tigh, I guess I am willing to wait and see how they explain his age. About them being on Galactica, Anders wasn’t there until Starbuck saved him. I was assuming there was more than one copy of the final five…or if not that, they knew, or were programmed to know, where to be and what to do. Is it fate or free-will? Because they are robots, I’m not betting heavily on the free-will option. Although, Athena and Caprica Six have exercised free-will, it seems to have been because they were changed by love. Three exercised free-will and it got her boxed.
13th Cylon writes:
Perhaps Tigh’s memory of the first war was implanted. I think in the show’s canon they don’t meet until shortly AFTER the first war. I’m smelling a backstory and hopefully we’ll get some more “young hairy Tigh with two eyes†scenes.
I hadn’t thought about this, but you have a great point! Bill and Tigh did, indeed, meet AFTER the first cylon war (CWI?). Perhaps the first war is an implanted memory! I could get into that.
But…do cylons age naturally then?
Not a cop-out at all! Actually quite the opposite, in my book. RDM and crew have taken characters that we’ve grown to love and care for, and thrown a huge monkey wrench into how we as an audience perceive them, and more importantly, how the rest of the characters will perceive them as well. This direction makes for good storytelling, period.
For instance:
– How will Cally react to her husband being a frakkin’ toaster, considering her trigger-happy hatred of Cylons? What about little Nicky, is he now in the same position as Hera? This to me is the strongest reveal, with the most precedent. The fact that (as some have mentioned before) he seems to be the most accepting of his Cylonhood surely stems from the issues he’s had previously, first as Boomer’s lover, and then the events leading to his breakdown, his dreams, beating Callie up, and his subsequent therapy sessions with brother Cavil (apparently they weren’t going to the same meetings, huh?).
– How will Tigh cope with this newfound duality in purpose? Will he be constant and unwavering in his support for the human race, or will he have to struggle with some form of programming, maybe ‘falling off the wagon’ every now and then? It is highly ironic that the man that can’t control his drinking problem now has to deal with a much deeper mental health issue. To me, this is the most compelling Cylon reveal, with the most promise for really good drama, because, well, Tigh rocks, and let’s face it, I can’t wait until the reveal to the rest of the Galactica crew, when Adama’s words to Tigh, “You’re my oldest friend, you’ve never embarrassed me,” come back and bite him in the ass! How will the Old Man defend his friend, when the most hated man (by his own admission- since he’s doing his job!) on the Bucket turns out to be one of the enemy?!?!
– As for Tigh’s backstory, well, I think it ties in nicely with my pet theory that these final five (yes, I include Starbuck) are actually Hylons, like Hera. I can see Tigh being the first Hylon model, his biological mom having been secretly implanted before the first Cylon war. It would certainly explain Tigh’s emotional instability (consider him a beta model of the Hylons, if you will), which might ostensibly be what drives him to drink (aside from Ellen’s ‘catting around’, of course). This line of reasoning reminds me of Romo Lampkin’s interview with Caprica Six, where he asks her if her mechanic tweaked her emotional levels, or her capacity for love. Could that actually be the case?
– For Tigh and the Chief in particular, how the rest of the crew on Galactica react to their reveal will be critical. I’ve already mentioned Callie, but there’s so much more to explore there, story-wise. As far as we know, even though Helo (insert officer here) makes for a decent XO, Tigh is the man who makes the tough calls, and always has the Old Man’s back. Also, something tells me that the deck gang just wouldn’t function properly if it wasn’t for the Chief. These two are critical to the performance of the Battlestar- I don’t think Adama will be able to afford to just throw them in the brig indefinitely like he did with Athena at first. The humans will have to learn to live with these Cylons, and really deal with the possibility that there could be even more sleepers in the fleet (even though we take it for granted that there are no more Cylon models after this reveal, the fleet doesn’t necessarily know this- all they have to go on is a note left on Adama’s desk by parties unknown).
Tori’s always played fast and loose with the rules. Does she have her own agenda? Is she even trustworthy, or will she betray the fleet? I didn’t like the look in her eyes when she came into the CIC with Tigh. . . Where Tigh exuded renewed resolve to be the man he always has been, she seemed to exude -um- treachery, I guess. Or maybe it was just fear. Who knows?? The only sure thing is that given her behavior in the past, she probably won’t play by the rules. Oh, and she’ll make a smokin’ hot Cylon babe!
I’m on the fence about Anders. To me, he might as well be a blank slate. Other than his career as a pro pyramid player and his affair and marriage to Starbuck, there’s not much to go on. I’d like to think that his actions for the resistance on New Caprica speak for themselves, making him exactly what he appears to be: a good and honourable man, regardless of his Cylonhood. This may very well be the case, and I hope so, because I really like his character. We’ll just have to wait and see.
As for Starbuck, I really have no idea. I think the religious aspect of the show will play a huge part in her future story arcs, and as I’ve stated before, since until recently I haven’t found the religious aspect of the show that compelling, I haven’t given it too much thought. Making her an angel of light and bringing all that über mystic stuff into the show (a la BSG78), however, might actually feel like a cop-out in my book, but that may just be my bias talking. I don’t know. The fact that she’s sporting a brand-spankin’ new Viper MkII does seem to imply that she was picked up and refitted by the Cylons (unless she wasn’t really there, and she’s Head-Starbuck, as some have pointed out).
Rose, I agree about identity being one of the main themes of the show. In addition to identity, they also play heavily with the idea of ‘the shape of things to come’, implying a human / cylon blend in the future, probably spearheaded by hybrids such as Hera or little Nicky, or possibly by the Final Five themselves, if they do turn out to be Hylons.
Armando: they might age naturally. . . if they’re Hylons!
Again, I don’t think this is a cop-out at all. Rather in keeping with the spirit of the show, imho. If anything, this opens up the possibility of more stories along the thematic lines of the webisodes and the beginning of Season Three, where the humans (ostensibly the good guys) resorted to ‘bad-guy’ tactics such as suicide bombings and the like. BSG has always been about blurring the lines between good and evil, right and wrong, liberal and conservative, if you will. This is just pushing it one step further.
X_O
(now with cylonicitytude)
btw, a Deus Ex Machina is when a story has a character come in in the end and explain everything that’s going on, or randomly saves the day, as opposed to having your characters doing it on thier own through plot development.>>>
And you can thank the lovely folks who invented opera, the Florentine Camerata, for that little dramatic devise! 🙂
Now you know…and knowing is half the battle. 😉
Rose, you have some very profound insights. I’m glad you’re sticking with the show.
I think you hit the nail in the head regarding Adama’s journey from hatred of the cylons (or, at least, Sharon/Athena) to acceptance. I think it’s a microcosm of everyone’s journey in the series, human AND cylon. They’ll all have to come to terms with it if the “way of things to come” is, indeed, the inseparable mixture of human and cylon.
“p.s. where is Ron Moore’s podcast?!”
He’s sick. He promised to do it as soon as he gets well a few days ago.
He also says he did a Q&A podcast with some students at Berkeley that should already have been posted.
Yo, Armando!
(If I have to explain it to you, get off of my lawn!)
Well, Pike, all I have to say to that is: porkchop sandwiches!
Here’s a minor thing that’s been bugging me about the “Final 5” models though. Okay, so we knew from the beginning that there were 12 models right? Okay. And the 7 we saw don’t know who the Final 5 are. Okay. So to me, I would assume that these 5 were probably built as a clump. Most likely they were the first 5, before the 7, or they could’ve been maybe the last 5 and something happened to them.
BUT according to the numbering/naming system, Lucy Lawless’s character was a number 3. At the same time, Sharron is a number 8. That means those Final 5 were intersperesed throughout the other models. Yet how could they not know of them if at least some of them had to be built AFTER Lucy Lawless’s charcacter (sorry, I know her name but I forget how to spell it)?
Now, going back subject to the writing. I think a lot of people are forgetting the fact this is an ongoing tv show. This isn’t a self contained movie where they have a clear idea of the entire story. So unfortunately, the writers cannot have a definitive beginning, middle, and end to the series because of logistics. What if a actor wants to leave? An actor they planned to play a major role in the future? Or what if as they go through the episodes, they discover new plot threads they hadn’t thought of but now realize are more interesting than what they originally intended?
Now I’m sure (or at least hoping) that RDM and the fine writers at BSG have at least a rough idea of the overall ENDING to the series. But in getting there, they will have to “wing it” due to the medium they are in. Even Lost (which is a show I am a fan of btw, so please no Lost bashing), a show in which the writers have said they KNOW the ending, makes no secret that in getting to the ending, they often adjust their plans and improvise as they go along. Aka “winging it.”
To me, the problem comes when people assume that’s automatically a bad thing. Now true, the very term “winging it” carries a negative conotation as it means you weren’t prepared and didn’t have foresight. But that isn’t always the case. It can also mean smartly improvising, the same way incredible jazz musicians make careers out of improvising.
To you regular listeners of RDM podcasts, there has been numerous times he’s admitted to a great idea coming to him out of the blue, sometimes as they are just in the middle of writing the episode which is 10x better than what they originally wanted. And that gives the show the freshness and vibrancy that so many other shows lack.
Now does that mean plot points like Tigh and Cheif and whatnot being Cylons was something that wasn’t neccesarily planned from the beginning of the series? Unfortunately yes. So there won’t be any purposefully inserted clues in the pilot. But I’m more than confident that the writers chose those characters because after everything is explained, it makes sense and it doesn’t contradict anything they’ve established before. They are probably even playing on the irony of the situation by having 3 of the Cylons the very figureheads of the Resistence on New Caprica and the other being the President’s Aide (personally I think the identity of the final 5 cylons was something they at least knew by the beginning of this season. I could be wrong though).
Well I’ve rambled on long enough. That’s my 2 cents and then some.
It felt like a copout to me. It cheapens their experiences, it breaks the rules we’ve been taught, and it doesn’t make since. Seriously, what happened to the two year rule? Difficulty breeding? Aging? Pretend back stories? Do we throw all that we know out the window for a shock ending?
Apparently yes.
If you can’t tell, I’m not pleased.
OK, here’s the lowdown. The Cylon(s/z) model numbers don’t make sense (yet, they may retcon those.) The note to Papadama doesn’t make sense (they don’t think of the final five, but they include them in the inventory?)
That’s because it’s not Babylon 5. There isn’t a preplanned, five year mission. There is a beginning and an end, but everything in between is up for grabs.
I don’t feel cheated at all because:
1) We don’t even know if they’re really cylons.
2) If they are cylons, we’ve waited long enough for a reveal. Writers can’t keep fans waiting too long before making good on promises or viewership goes down.
3) I also felt exhilarated by experiencing the 4’s discovery (whatever that really is). “Exhilarated” is such a perfect word to describe it, Audra.
Does anyone know where I can get the lyrics to the Bob Dylan song? I don’t know his music very well and don’t even know the name of the song.
Also, when do we start the Rewatch?
As always, thank you Great Three for the awesome ‘casts!
I don’t feel cheated because “the rules” as far as I’m concerned only apply to what the characters think they know. If the 7 repress the knowledge of the 5, who is to say that they haven’t repressed the history of the 5 and their development. Besides there is always a descrepancy between history as written and history as happened.
Anyway, I’m excited to explore in season 4 the backstory on these revealed 4. Was there a rift between the 7 and the 5? Were the 5 purposed for a different mission? Were the 5 taken from a different gene pool? (Hence can I eliminate virus exposed characters or not?) How are the 5 connected to Earth? Yada, yada… I really think it will make sense in the end. If BSG didn’t turn concepts on their head and kept to a black and white evil cylon vs. good human premise, I’d be bored out of my mind. I’m looking forward to finding out how the history and fate of the cylons and humans are intertwined. Now if only they could improve the quality and relavancy of “stand alone” episodes….
Forgot to add…
Tigh actually does not suprise me because his self-destructive behavior never really was explained. A deep self-hatred could account for that. That could also explain Starbuck, although I don’t think she’s a full cylon. She still could be a hylon. Hmmm. I always thought Tigh and Kara were a little too alike, but perhaps that’s stretching things in a direction that’s a little too pedestrian.
Here here about the “stand alone” episodes Anatolia. BSG on a bad day is better than the usual TV drek, but the BSG Gods could do better.
Please disregard my post about the Dylan lyrics. What was I thinking? I wikied it! :O)
I just rewatched the episode and here are some questions I now have:
What’s the deal with Tori and Anders? How did they hook up and how long has this been going on??
Why does Rosalin not hear the music but she gets woozy when the ship’s power goes out? I’m beginning to think she’s one of the final five. Either that or she’s got some kind of nanotechnology that turned her into a hylon. Rad.
Is a Bob Dylan song used because it’s being transmitted from our earth, present day?
And weren’t there 4 horsemen of the apocalypse? And a fifth that did something to lead them?
Hmmmm…
My favorite line of the episode: “Espionage…with music?”
Ok, just answered my own question about the 5th horseman of the apocalypse (love that wikipedia!). Apparently, Christ was the 5th horseman. He came back on a white horse (substitute viper?). I’ve been wondering if Starbuck would turn into a Christ-like “savior” character and I think that’s where her character is headed.
Jaz –
My favorite lines:
“…Butterfingers…” by Baltar
and “Whoa” by Tigh when he walks in and sees the other 3 – something about the way he says it makes me so happy…
Confession time, and I figure this is as good a place as any.
I am only now getting around to watching the first couple eps of season 3.
And surprise surprise, what am I greeted with? The only missing element is Tori. This is going to be interesting to see play out.
I love the possibilities of this. You have four good guys (yes I am including Tori although she is a little dubious-Miss Lets Steal the Election-) and they discover they are now the “bad guys”. I love it think of the possibilities in storytelling. How are they going to cope etc. Also if they are the final 5 maybe they were put into “sleep” mode by Bro. Cavil or were going to be boxed and they escaped and made their way to the humans. The other cylons don’t talk about the 5. Why? That will be an interesting story I think.
Also I am looking forward to Cally’s reaction to Tyrol’s honey I have something to tell you speech.
Aleigh, while that will be cool to see play out, I strongly suspect even Brother Cavil didn’t know who they were. If he did… Well, he could’ve treated Tigh like he did, but I doubt it.
No.. I think when they say the other cylons are not to know the faces of the final 5, they are being literal. And if the final 5 are tied to the Lords of Kobol and the Cylon’s one true God, then it would be madness to know their faces.
Oh, wait. That’s what is happening to us, no? =)
This is a little off topic but I need a semantic clarification: the word “retcon” has been bandied around a lot in talking about the season finale in this and other forums. What does it mean?
Armando, “retcon” is a contraction of “retroactive continuity.” Essentially, it means coming up with something after the fact to explain a continuity error.
Gotcha! Kind of like George Lucas saying “Anakin Skywalker built C-3PO,” huh? Thanks, Pike.
Hehe.. my favorite retcon would be the disparity in the anatomy of the Klingons in Enterprise, Star Trek NG, etc vs the original Stark Trek. That has never been fully explained except with a gruff look from Worf to Chief O’Brian & a “we don’t like to talk about it”.. but I digress.
Having just re-watched the first 4 episodes of season 3 and the actions off all involved, I am going to have to say that I buy into the good cylon vs bad cylon theory.
Also in watching the first 4 episodes, I am of the mind that the bad cyclon command structure isn’t as united in purpose as one would think.
The Tigh is model one. We do not know that the cylon war went on for a long and bloddy struggle. What we can gues is that there might have been a war within the cylons that some wanted war and some didn’t. Tigh creators must have created him to before the cylon war. In some season two when he deals with Cylons who boarded Gallactica he says “I have seen this before” see deleated scene entitled war stories. Now why are the final five different maybe the cylons thought a war with themselves between the five and seven. Then starbuck is a cylon and maybe gallactica just ran into the fleet of the final five not the evil fleet.
odd that there were 4 base-ships and there was 4 cylons revealed. Also
**by the way, i don’t think they are Cylons**
the Cylons could have implanted them with devices to help them track the fleet. When the fleet was getting closer to Earth, radio waves were being intercepted by the implants and when they get close together the music was getting louder. they are not cylons, but the 5 are in the fleet
Rube, they did a full retcon of the Klingons in “Enterprise.” It had to do with genetic engineering and viruses and yadda yadda yadda.
Renegade, interesting point on the number of baseships. I wonder if it was coincidental?
Yeah…I had assumed, I don’t know why, that the final five only had one of each model (maybe the notion of their being “final” made me think that), but that, of course, hardly makes sense given what we know about cylons in general. So maybe the fleet we see at the end of the finale, which did indeed have only four ships (not five, like the one Racetrack saw in part one) AND was not firing on the RTF IS a final five fleet. Hmm…
Is it January yet?
I believe that someone else mentioned it but I will reiterate. When Racetrack jumped out she had detected 5 base ships…..to me, this lends a bit of credance to the point that these 4 baseships might be different.
The Cylon reveal felt manipulative to me, a cheap way to shock the audience and hopefully keep them hooked between seasons. If the writers had been working their way toward this conclusion since the mini-series, maybe I wouldn’t feel this way. But from interviews of Moore and Eick that I’ve read, this doesn’t seem to be the case. That said, I enjoy the show and the writing, especially from the beginning of Season 3 through to the “Collaborators” episode.
I just have a hard time believing that statistically 4 of the final five are all survivors of the holocaust of the 12 colonies, made it to the Exodus and then survived New Caperica and finally survived the Second Exodus.
OH MY GOD!
guys, like I said I’m going back and catching up on episodes I had missed.
Gaeta didn’t purger himself. Baltar never told Gaeta about the gun to his head, and Gaeta wasn’t in the room when the Cylons did it.
For an entire season, the editing has always shown Gaeta’s reactions, mixed in with the signing. The implication is, of course, that Gaeta was present or Gaeta somehow knew.
He didn’t.
It’s a minor issue, I know. But for the entire damned season, Gaeta’s thought Baltar did it of his own free will, unless something is revealed in the 10 minutes of the ep I’m about to watch.
After looking at the scene with the 4 base-ships right before the show ends it seems that the base-ships are really close together to have just jumped in the sector. My military tactical knowledge allows me to believe that they were there before the fleet jump in and that they aren’t in combat ready formation; they do have a couple of squadrons already out but not bigger then the alert fighter squadron. So I believe that the opening episode in January will have the fleet moving to the rear and trying to get some distance from the fight but the Base-ship wouldn’t attack Galactica. There will be some…. Dialog before any real fight like the scene back in season two when Pegasus and Galactica were about to duke it out, and then Starbuck came and saved the day
Athenor, nice. It’s always refeshing to hear someone catching up.
HOWEVER, Gaeta wasn’t in the room, true. BUT he did present his testimony as if he had been. That’s still perjury. (Actually, I think that they have a direction for Gaeta with all this, but I can’t quite figure out what it all is.)
I’ll have to re-watch the ep. I’m still catching up with things.
Like right now, I’m starting Collaborators — it was right on the bubble, I was just getting into the show, and Jammer’s spacing rattled me.
In Baltar’s dream, to open the second act… Tigh has both eyes. In other words, he didn’t know what the cylons were doing to the prisoners on New Caprica… And perhaps, neither did Head Six. We’ll have to see.
These are the kinds of things that need to be watched out for during the re-watch. I mean.. I can’t believe I’m defending Baltar here… but if the Cylons never told him what happened to the prisoners…. Well, maybe he would’ve fought back earlier.
I thought of another way that could explain Tigh being in the first Cylon war. The final 5 Cylon(s) could be the surviving models from the original exodus from Kobal or perhaps even Earth. If “This has all happened before and will happen again”, then Cylon(s) could have been created before. Humans could have originated on Earth, created the Cylon(s) who then turned on them. The surviving humans could have fled and settled on Kobal where they would eventually recreate the Cylon(s). The humans then fled Kobol to form the 12 colonies.
Okay, I went back and watched Crossroads, pt. 2.
Yeah, Gaeta claimed to be there and see him sign it. He definitely lied.
Frak. Now I need to write to the crew about my listener podcast recording. =/
I think basically if anyone thinks this is a cop-out, it’s the same thing when some people stopped watching the show after Maelstrom because they only watched for Starbuck’s antics. It depends what you mean by cop-out, because you can’t judge this revelation in terms of overall story, simply because we don’t know where this is going. To have a real opinion of this in narrative terms, you’d have to know where it’s going, which we obviously don’t. So by definition, an opinion at this point has pretty much no basis.
The only real practical reason these cliffhangers exist is to keep the audience hooked between seasons. So as a cliffhanger, this works fine, it’s got everyone interested, some confused, some amazed, and I’m definitely hooked until next season. I don’t think we really have much to back up an opinion on the story until we see it.
Athenor, “In Baltar’s dream, to open the second act… Tigh has both eyes. In other words, he didn’t know what the cylons were doing to the prisoners on New Caprica… And perhaps, neither did Head Six.” Good catch! Things like this are why I’m actually excited by the rewatch project*.
Ray, ” To have a real opinion of this in narrative terms, you’d have to know where it’s going, which we obviously don’t. So by definition, an opinion at this point has pretty much no basis.” Spot on. We won’t be able to truly opine until we get an explaination (which will prob. be at the end of season four.)
*another band name?
A thought occurred to me on why this cylon reveal feels so much different than others and why, then, it might feel like a cop-out. In the past, cylon reveals have involved a previously unknown character introduced into the mix and revealed as a cylon after a relatively short time. D’eanna was introduced in “Final Cut” as a human reporter on the colonial fleet then revealed at the end of the episode to be a cylon, when we cut back to the cylons (in their home world? A base star? Caprica?) watching the documentary film the 3 in the fleet had produced. Brother Cavil was introduced at the beginning of “Lay Down Your Burdens Part I” as a replacement for Elosha, and revealed as a cylon to the audience when he shows up on Caprica at the beginning of part II, and then to Tyrol when the Caprican Cavil arrives on Galactica later that episode. Same thing with Simon on “The Farm,” Leoben in the miniseries and, I suppose, Aaron Doral in the miniseries. The one exception to this rule seems to be Sharon Valerii, and that was a controversial decision among fans of the original show (perhaps only slightly less so than making Starbuck a woman). Now we’re on the final five reveal and who do we get? Four, possibly five (Starbuck COULD be one of them…) familiar faces we have known and been invested in for much of the show’s history. It feels, therefore, like a totally different sort of animal than previous reveals have and essentially changes our perception of what a cylon is/could be (much as David Eick has suggested they will be doing in season 4).
So…not so much a cop-out as a huge wrench in the machine (although I’d venture that it’s less of one than settling the humans on New Caprica and having the cylons take it over was).
Hi! I just found your site today, and I’m glad of it. Good reading here, both from the site bloggers and the commenters.
One thing I haven’t seen here (or if someone brought it up, I missed it) is a theory regarding D’Anna’s comment when she saw the Final Five. “You. Forgive me, I had no idea,” she says to one of them. Which one do you think she’s addressing? We know four out of the five, assuming Moore isn’t misdirecting us, and to me it would be a little annoying if the comment were just there to tantalize us about the last one.