March 26, 2007

GWC Podcast #35

What is there to say about the season three finale except “wow.” Highlights: we walk through Baltar’s trial step-by-step all the way to the “jury’s” decision, consider the many, many explanations as to why we saw/didn’t see the “final five,” theorize on the possibilities of starbuck’s “fate,” and, well, wonder (just like you) how we’ll get through the ten (plus?) month off-season. (Hint: like the Cylons, we’ve got a plan.) We again welcome back GWC senior legal analyst Bill Watkinson, who walks us through this episode’s trial scenes. Don’t forget to call or send in your audio for next week’s listener ‘cast!

202 Responses to "GWC Podcast #35"
  1. BoxytheBoxed says:

    woohoo #1

  2. Wille B says:

    so, crazy episode, when you were talking about how this couldn’t be the distant past because of the bob dylan song, if it was actually the radio waves reaching Galactica then it would have to be around the year 3500 on earth (acording to wikipedia, the orion nebula is 1500 light years from earth
    although the radio wave should have been too weak to be picked up…..
    anyways, just a thought

  3. Mortimer Black says:

    Why did Gaeta lie? That’s the real question left for me. Sure we know four of the final five, but what did Baltar whisper in that interview? What was it that drove Gaeta to stab him immediately and then lie on the witness stand?


  4. Ray says:

    Here’s my thoughts on when and where Galactica is, based on these facts:
    They picked up a radio signal from Earth… somehow. A signal that I’m assuming was broadcast around late sixties, possibly early seventies (or any other time really for that matter, but this is just to narrow it down).
    Assuming radio broadcasts travel at the speed of light (is this correct?), then the number of light-years the Ionian Nebula is away from Earth is the amount of years they are ahead of roughly 1970, right?

    According to Wikipedia, “The Ionian Nebula is 13,000 light years from the Algae Planet”. A distance which only took them half a season to cover.

    So it depends how far away the Ionian Nebula is from Earth, which we obviously don’t know. But I’ll go out on a limb and say it’s less than 13,000 light years, because I don’t think even RDM could show us Earth in the year 15,000 AD. And I’m going to assume that we’ll see Earth next season, so it shouldn’t take them that long to get there (as long as they’ve got Aurora guiding them :)).

    The original exodus from Kobol was approx. 4,000 years ago. I think 2,000 BC sounds like a nice time for the 13th Tribe to arrive and set up their civilisation. For this reason, and also for production costs assuming we do see the surface of Earth, we’re going to see Galactica arrive around present day, possibly near future. So this means Galactica could potentially be only a few jumps away.

    Which brings the interesting problem, what are we going to do when Galactica leads the cylons right to our front door?

    (P.S. I KNEW Starbuck was coming back, I never lost faith. As if RDM’s going to be like “What should we do today? Kill Starbuck just for the shock? Hmm…” Let’s not forget about Kara Thrace and Her Special Destiny.)

  5. Ray says:

    Hey Mortimer Black, RDM said on a commentary podcast that what Baltar whispered that made Gaeta stab him, narrowly missing the jugular (Butterfingers…) was a whole storyline regarding the Sagitarons which was completely dropped, which is why the Woman King didn’t work out so well, it was meant to be part of the set up.

  6. Mortimer Black says:

    Hi Ray, I didn’t get that unfortunately, however a lot of TV writers take something like that and use it. While he has said something in a commentary, it’s not officially “canon” until its in an episode, so he could still turn round and use it as something else. Who knows. On the other hand it may just be what he said and it will remain an officially loose plot thread for the rest of the series.

    On the minor issue of Starbuck being alive, well, come on, without her and the Admiral (and Baltar) the show would go downhill fast. They made four good choices for the cylons. A major character (Tigh), a likeable minor one (Tyrol), Starbucks ex, and that “not-billy” woman. Shame Billy left….I’d like to see him as a cylon.

  7. Cavatar says:

    Hey all…

    Does anyone want to see Lawer Bill be on a full podcast with out beloved cast???


  8. Challabuck says:

    Regarding Tigh, Chief, Anders, Tory…i.e. are they or aren’t they Cylons?

    RDM himself is clear about it, which really surprises me. If you want to know (BIG spoiler, IMO), go here:

  9. Challabuck says:

    And re: the fleet-wide power outtage, we’re all assuming that the Cylon fleet itself didn’t got through the same shut down scenario (although something tells me if they did, they wouldn’t take 20 minutes to power back up). Anyway, I agree that it’s wrong to assume that the Cylons caused the power failure.

  10. Cavatar says:

    Finally…someone who says Tori is hot…I am not saying she is hot hot…but I would not kick her out of bed. My girlfriend might tho.

  11. Mack-the-Mike says:

    My Top Questions:

    • Are the Cylons split by factions? Are they in a civil war? The initial 7 don’t know what the final 5 look like. The 5 don’t seem to be working with the 7. Are the basestars in the nebula part of the Final 5 Faction and that’s why they aren’t attacking the RTF?

    • When did the Cylons develop the tech to create skin jobs? Since Tiegh was in the first Cylon war, the technology must be at least 40 years old.

    • What happened in the First Cylon War? I’d always assumed that the first war was a sort of slave rebellion when the Cylons went from being servants of Man to being independant.

    • How do the Final 5 know “All Along the Watchtower”? Did the Cylons get the biotech to make skin jobs from Earth? Are the Cylons, or a faction of the Cylons, under control of Earth?

  12. Challabuck says:

    One last point — I must be nuts, because no one else is talking about this, but I thought I saw a massive shipscape in the nebula cloud right before Starbuck showed up. Probably was just more nebula poking through the nebula clouds.

  13. Magycian says:

    Couple of things….

    Six beams of light. 5 Final Cylons looking like they are waiting for the sixth. Gotta be Hera is the sixth.

    Transponder codes would have been changed since Starbuck was lost. I’d imagine they are changed frequently since we know Cylons have Human ships too.

    Remember Sean’s shipload of oracles? Maybe Baltar’s rescuers were ready for everything.

    I’ve got to think on the 4 being Cylon more. I don’t think they can be. I’ll try to tune my theories more.

  14. Nick says:

    Ok.. if the Chief is a cylon isn’t his son a Hybrid? Why then would his son not have the same importance that Hera does?

  15. Boomer "The Brother" says:

    Tory said, “I can’t get no relief”. It was odd to me when she said it for the central reason that I am not very aware of Dylan and his songs. So when she says this, I’m thinking that doesn’t sound like anything Tory would say.

  16. Mortimer Black says:


    How says Nick (the baby Nick) doesn’t have more importance? We only just found out he is half human half cylon.

  17. Nick says:

    One more thing.. was it just me or was Starbuck’s helmet/outfit really really white? Might this be going somewhere along the lines of the original series when Starbuck (the original) got picked up by this big white ship of “angles” or whatnot.

  18. Zigdon says:

    Random comments:

    I don’t buy the 4 (+starbuck) as the F5. For one thing, it seems too much as if we’re supposed to think that, but without any actual evidence. Yes, it seems they all think they are (maybe even think they KNOW they are), but I need to see a tub-of-goo before I’ll believe.

    I did expect SB to show up for the cliffhanger (I think I’m even on record on that), and was a little worried when I didn’t see Katee’s name in the opening credits. Then cheered out loud (scaring my neighbors at 1am) when she did show.

    Head-SB? I guess she might be – but as Sean said, we just don’t know enough.

    Baltar’s trial – anyone else feel it ended up being an anti-climax? At the riot at the end I did expect some attempt on his life, or even on Lee’s. But nothing! I was not surprised the Admiral voted to acquit though – not that he was convinced by Lee’s emotional argument, but perhaps just jolted enough to see that they really didn’t have enough of a case to convict.

    Oh – one more thing (before I end this ramble) – I really liked the scene between Adama and Laura on the phone. Was cute 😉 And it does certainly show their relationship is advancing steadily. Who knows – in 10 months they’ll probably be married with a kid!

    Guys, thanks for the podcast, and even more thanks for promising to help us all through the upcoming 10 months.


  19. Aron says:

    As far as the “Watchtower” Question goes, my friend chris has a theory that the final five infact predate the other cylons and that they are the original Gods of Colbal. That being said, he believe that if this is the case that perhaps they can use the their decendants as avatars. Since everything is cycular, then that song has already been written on earth and gods of colbal would know it.

    This would also explain “head” leoben if Starbuck is the fifth and she was infact taken over by her ancestor.

    And on a side note, does anyone know whose version of Watchtower that is?

  20. Aron says:

    oh… i spelled Kobol wrong…

  21. Nick says:

    “No reason to get excited,” the thief, he kindly spoke,
    “There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke.
    But you and I, we’ve been through that, and this is not our fate,
    So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late.”

    Hmm.. Does this mean Starbuck is the thief?

  22. Michael says:

    I could be wrong, but the feeling I got was that The final four (not counting Starbuck) have been activated (by someone or something) to help protect the fleet on the final leg of the trip to earth.
    Let’s look at it….
    Tori is close to The President. Tigh is close to the military leader. The chief is over the fighters. Anders WAS close to starbuck, who it is said has some grand part to play.
    Just an idea.

  23. Aron says:

    Think that perhaps the thing in which you speak could be the Cerephs. the flashes of Light in the first series.

  24. BDGroundHog says:

    Hey guys,

    This is my first time posting/commenting, but I’ve been listening to the podcast since I found it and only had missed a few episodes. Anyway, here’s my question: Why does Baltar always get rescued by beautiful women? I’m not sexist or anything, it’s just that the trend clicked last night.

    Caprica Six, Boomer, D’ana, The President (before she wanted to throw him out the airlock)… In a way, sort of, Starbuck saved a bit of his sanity when she bunked with him… Head Six has helped him avoid danger left and right… Now, Gaius Balter has a cult-ish following of women that worship him and rush him off to his “new life” in the middle of the power outage.

    To be cursed with beautiful women always rushing to his rescue… what a gift.

  25. The 13th Cylon says:

    Bear McCreary’s site said that the song is intended to be a pop song in the Galactica universe. I don’t think it’s some radio signal from Earth.

  26. Aron says:

    well everything is cyclical so why would we assume that pop music is any different.

  27. Athenor says:

    Holy Frak.

    Holy Frakking Frak.

    I don’t have words. I don’t FUCKING have words.

    However, my theories are strengthened.


  28. Babs says:

    For some killer insight on the song, check out Bear McCreary’s blog.

    He scores BSG, and his bro did the vocals. Former members of Oingo Boingo have been kicking in with him for nearly the entire run of the show- they jokingly call it Boingostar Galactica.

    Read Bear’s blog. You won’t be disappointed!

  29. Mack-the-Mike says:

    Some Quicko Theories:

    • Evil Earth: Earthlings control the Cylons and are using them to whip out the 12 Colonies.
    • The initial 7 are dupes. The Final 5 are pulling the strings. The 5 intended for the RTF to survive.
    • The RTF will eventually travel back in time thousands of years and settle on Kobol. The prophesies in the scriptures are true because they were written by people who witnessed the events.

  30. Ty-the-Giant says:

    I go along with the idea that this is all going to be very bad for the humans. The final five might be like the oraical in the matrix. Bad cylons, good cylons, all part of a plan to control the humans… over and over again.


  31. Athenor says:

    This episode does not discount my belief in the “final 5” being mental constructs, able to inhabit bodies instead of having set forms. Just wanted to get that out there.

    I also thought you guys would appreciate this. My “website” in this posting is a link to my photobucket account. Don’t kill it, please, but it is a screencap of the final frame of the episode. You can guess what’s in it. I just wanted to see if anyone who knows better can see if there are signs of civilization or not.

  32. Cavatar says:

    Ok…I finally finished the podcast now and I don’t see the hope that is being talked about. When I watched it last night I had an since of doom!!! None of the ships have the power to jump for about twenty minutes. They have us clearly hearing Adama saying we just don’t have twenty minutes. There is no way that Galactica can hold off four Basestars, the last time they took on four the Galactica only survived at the loss of Battlestar Pegasus.

    Ok, so maybe they are there with Starbuck; what does that really change? The point was made in the podcast that we cannot even get along with ourselves. So what if there is a new peace with the Cylons, how long will it last? What happens on the day Cavil wants to nuke us again? The Cylons knowing the location of Earth, is a very bad concept for humans.

    The idea that this all happened before and will happen again is not much better either when you think of the Cylons herding the humans back and forth. This idea was also mentioned in the podcast. So you mean to tell me that every several thousand years or so, the entire race is almost exterminated except for less than one percent of the population. This a positive you say? I disagree.

    So, as great as the episode was; and as great as the last few episodes have been I must say that I thought there was plenty of doom in the cliffhanger. It just was not as dramatic as Adama being shot in CIC or the Cylons taking New Caperica and so forth.


  33. Athenor says:

    *listens to the podcast*

    .. Okay, I’m going to whip up a photoshop of the origin and destination of the pullout, just to show they really aren’t that far…

    Unless someone else does it first. *wink*

  34. Cavatar says:

    So, now that Baltar is acquitted of whatever crime/s he was charged with; I must bring up a question I first asked months ago. Why is he not the president? He didn’t die in office as everyone in the fleet first thought. We know this from the episode about the virus.

    Baltar was never removed form office; we know this from two episodes. First the before mentioned virus Episode, and since they thought Baltar was dead, they would not feel the need to remove him. Second, the episode after the Exodus; we learn from Zarek that they need to elect a new Quorum so he could get Roslin appointed as VP so he could resign.

    Batlar was just acquitted, so he did not commit a crime that would have him removed from office; so why is he not the legal president???


  35. MotherFraker says:

    I’m not sure I needed half an hour of legal analysis…

  36. Arktis says:

    Starbuck is Ghost Rider… great. Just when I was glowing over her death, too. I really hate her…

    Why did they have to make my least favorite character basically immortal?

  37. Rabbit Ritto says:

    There is only a couple of points I wanted to make regarding Starbuck. As to her showing up “unknown” on DRADUS (sp)…couple of possiblities…1) She didn’t want to be identified (i.e. she turned it off), 2) she IS a Head Starbuck that would also be why only Lee noticed it. and 3) The Galactica/Lees Viper didn’t identify her transponder code because isn’t a part of the colonial fleet….

    I think that she did make it to earth somehow….here is my evidence…
    Just before her Viper blew in “Malestrom” the camera is positioned behind Lees Viper and to the left. The “mystery raider” passes across the screen and disappears above and to the left of Starbucks viper. If it were in Starbuck’s head why would they show it from Lees point of view? Also…take a look at the Viper Starbuck is flying in this episode. If you have TIVO you may have to go back and forth several times. You only get two good looks at it for only a few seconds. The design is different…it is subtle. Also it looks new and not banged up like all the others. So that begs the question…where did it come from? This design looks like a modernization of the original Viper (red and white paint scheme) not like the softer, rounder gunmetal colored one that Lee flies.
    An early poster mentioned seeing something in the nebula…as I was thinking of this new Viper design this morning and how she came by it…it dawned on me…she has been to earth and brought back support. Hiding in the nebula is another fleet from earth. That would explain why she is sooooo calm talking to Lee “Everything is going to be ok”. She knows that the other fleet is there and that combined the Cylons don’t stand a chance.

  38. Athenor says:

    Hey hey, lookie what someone found on another forum I post at:

    Posted in November… and what’s more, it might be a good idea to go and look at Exodus again.. in.. erm…. light of things.

  39. Gray says:

    I’m listening to the podcast right now. Great job yall!

    Thanks to the poster who linked the RDM interview. He isn’t always explicit enough to take at face value but I do think he’s truthful in saying that the four revealed are actual Cylons and it’s not a fake-out.
    I also think Starbuck’s not one. And agree that if you try to take a literal interpretation Starbuck’s words to Lee certainly fit with the Thief from Watchtower.
    And it’s definitely true that the Four Cylons are all in incredibly close positions to arguably the four most important human characters in the Fleet. I didn’t quite know what kind of vibe I got off Tory in her scene where she tries to reassure Roslin.
    Anyways, great podcast. 10 Months to work on some kickass theories.

  40. Gray says:

    One more thing:

    In the Lee/ Starbuck scene we are never shown anyone else reacting or noticing her so it doesn’t prohibit the fact that someone on Galactica may have also seen her on DRADIS.

    And if RDM wanted to create maximum nervousness and theorizing amongst the fans this is how he would do it. Give no indication that anyone else sees her, build undeniable parallels to Maelstrom, make us wonder if it’s hallucination. Then have Starbuck repeat, almost verbatim, Adama’s words from the mini-series.

    That doesn’t mean it’s not how it’s shown. Maybe only Lee did see her.

    But I hope Dee picked it up on DRADIS too and we’re just not privy to it.

  41. TheDoctor says:

    Thanks, LawyerBill for explaining the legal aspects of the last few episodes!

  42. David W. Griffin says:

    What if there never were any “human” cylons. What if there is a renegade group of humans dating from the first cylon war and using cloning technologies to replicate themselves? Otherwise the mechanical cylons would need to create the human cylons and have they demonstrated the intelligence and sentience to do so? And why would the 7 cyclons we know be such a “motley” group if they were all created — why not create everyone young and beautiful (like six)?

    Of course six’s red spine is still a problem, but it’s already a contradiction — such a substantial mechanical part is inexplicable if the Cylons want to pass as human, and were it there they would be exposed the first time a doctor examined (or xrayed) them. Since we needed a “cylon detector” to detect them, there cannot be substantial mechanical parts. No, the cylons ARE human (either they always were or they are now).

    Perhaps the cylons we see (the 7 and the 5) are just the survivors of the renegades who originally programmed the cylons to revolt.

  43. Gray says:

    Okay, this is what happens when I have my day off as Monday.

    But… I just read somewhere that the Final Five probably had to age and grow up.

    So here’s my latest addendum to my earlier theory. Perhaps the F5 are the last descendants of Cylon and Human progeny. The last five Hylons from a previous Cycle.

  44. Athenor says:

    David, I’m probably going to send an audio clip to the ‘cast for this week, and one of the subjects I’ll be talking about is said spine.

    Yes, Athenor has a theory for EVERYTHING! MWAHAHAHAA!

    … I’m so excited right now. I want to go to the quad of my university and sing “All along the Watchtower” at the top of my lungs. I’ll get looked at weirdly.. but I still want to do it!

  45. Athenor says:

    Oh, and on another note:

    “We don’t have 20 minutes.”

    Hmmm.. that sounds like 14 minutes.

    Isn’t that the usual length of, say, a scene? Could we possibly looking at a 14-minute, REAL TIME battle where the fleet is in HONEST TO GOD danger, with no frakking way to jump away, and only the vipers and the Galactica between them?

    Sean, I’m looking at you… if this doesn’t get you excited, and anxious for the months to be up, I don’t know what will.

  46. 13th Cylon says:

    Oh my, everything’s in italics. lol Actually just the 3rd comment down.

    And the GWC podcast isn’t on iTunes yet. Oh no!

  47. jimtothehum says:

    I thought the power outage coincided with the “switch” being flipped on for the final 4 Cylons…I never concidered the outage a mystery, since I thought the two were linked.

  48. Athenor says:

    Lesse if this fixes it…

    Wait, it’s not? Then how did I already listen to 2 hours of it, based on iTunes?

  49. Writch says:

    First-things-first, I predicted (or at least asked to consider) Tory as Cylon back in the #31 ‘cast comments. There ya go.

    And per a question on the ‘cast: Tigh was the 1st to “quote Dylan” in the Watchtower lyrics. Right after he complained to Adm Adama about sabotage in the ship, and Adama says he’ll look into it, then leaves.

    Tighclops looks up and around an mumbles, “There must be some other way out this place…”

  50. Pike says:

    Wow. Great ‘cast as usual. Kudos to Lawyer Bill.

    When the fleet was ‘dead in the water,’ were the Cylons powered down too? That’s not at all clear.

    I’m not sure where they’re going with the Final Five thing, but one thing that bugs me is Tigh. He’s older than the Cylon rebellion. WTF? Of course, one common link of the almost-final four: they’re all cheap actors.

    In the vision Opera Hose vision, Baltar looks like Head Baltar, while Six is apparently Caprica Six. Did he come along for the ride? Or is it real Baltar, and he’s having visions too?

    I’m still half-convinced that Starbuck didn’t explode, the Raider did.

    When did everyone pick up on the song? I got it when Tory said the “I can’t get no relief” line, because nobody uses that construction outside of a song. (And also I was puzzled by the repeated “there must be some way out of here.”)

  51. Athenor says:

    I will admit, I read the spoilers, so I knew what was coming. I just couldn’t put two and two together, but every verse, like, pinged something off the side of my brain from when I was a kid and would listen to it.


    What? You guys weren’t introduced to MP3’s with Jimi?


    Anyways. For those curious, the spoilers were spot-on accurate. But getting there, and trying to convince myself that they weren’t.. Oh, was it a ride. =)

  52. Athenor says:


    that weird .> thing is supposed to be an anime style face.

    GWC crew, you might want to turn off HTML in the podcast posts. =P

  53. Armando says:


    Great point on the arrival date of the thirteenth colony on earth. A 4000-2000 b.c. arrival date would put them at the earliest points in human civilization (well, if we’re talking about 2000b.c. or so). Wouldn’t it? (My history is a little spotty when it comes to very early civilizations.)

    I’m about three podcasts behind thanks to a long business trip, but I wanted to comment on this episode, which just blew me away. I know this might seem like blasphemy too, but if next season isn’t the last season and, therefore, wraps up all of the major storylines, then I’m going to cry. It just seems like they’ve been very deliberate in setting up a push to the end in the second half of the season, and especially last night.

  54. Gray says:

    Okay, I wasn’t sure where to post this but Entertainment Weekly has some post-finale interviews with EJO, MM, and RDM. They’re pretty interesting.
    I’d post the link but I haven’t a clue how.
    It’s on the main EW page.

  55. Armando says:

    Re: Starbuck as a “head Starbuck:” I’m not sure this is the case. The two head people we know, Baltar and Six, either identified themselves as such (Baltar tells Caprica Six in “Downloaded” not to speak to him when the others are around because they can’t see him) or play up the ambiguity of their identity (Head Six keeps Baltar in the dark, all the way back in the miniseries, as to whether she is a manifestation of Baltar’s unconscious or a chip implanted by the Cylons). Starbuck, at the end of last night’s show, tells Lee, “It’s really me.”

    I’m not sure, however, that she’s a Cylon either. It’s gonna be a long ten months…

  56. Pike says:

    Rabbit Rito, what differences do you see in her Viper? It looks like a standard Mark II to me (Lee’s flying a Mark VII) It is very clean, though, and the canopy isn’t cracked. VFX error, or significant?

    Athenor, what a prophetic video!

    Also, the acts in BSG are usually about ten minutes long, except act four which is about five. You have to keep in mind that very little is shown in real time, so timing a scene is futile.

    Writch, just about everyone got one of the final cylons!

    Gray, just copy the link from the top of your browser and paste it. Like this:,,20015932,00.html

  57. Dainin says:

    Athenor: In looking at the screen capture we can say that 1) it is not far distant past, ie Pangea super-continent (assuming the writers are paying attention to continental drift.) and it is post ice age, no glaciers and the Great Lakes are showing (or at least are hinted at). Also, the continental outline( a function of the level of the sea ~ and by extension polar ice caps)is consistent with recent era, course that goes back 8,000 BCE or so 🙂

    So that would not rule out present day, say from the Sumerians to now, or near fiture but would suggest that the Colonials are not the precursors of the human race, Unless they are cro magnon man subsitutes.
    “The Cro-Magnons form the earliest known European examples of Homo sapiens sapiens, from ca. 40,000 years ago, chromosomally descending from Y haplogroup F / mt haplogroup N populations of the Middle East.” Wikipedia

    So even adding 4-6,000 for the 13th tribe, we fall short, unless there is a “all this happened before” explanation, that earth has had waves of settlemnt from the Colonies or their precursors.

  58. David W. Griffin says:

    Of course it’s possible it’s Earth but not OUR Earth. Maybe this earth has a 13th colony colony on it with colonial type civilization. Maybe it pre-empted early man or man didn’t exist on this world (didn’t evolve).

    Just because Galactica 1980 found our earth doesn’t mean this one will.

  59. Eyeless says:

    OMG…so excited…must listen to Watercooler now.

    Anyway, did anyone know that Bear McCreary’s (BSG composer) brother Brendan sang the take on Bob Dylan’s song? Kind of interesting.

  60. David W. Griffin says:

    Oh, and if I were an Earthman (and oh! I am) I wouldn’t want Galactica OR the Cylons anywhere within 100 lightyears of Earth. The Cylons would probably attack and the Colonials would try to take over (for our own good of course or so they’d tell themselves). Do you want Roslyn as President of Earth with the Galactica in orbit to back up her directives?

    Earth’s only chance is not to be found or to be powerful enough to resist the Cylons AND the Colonials (or negotiate with them). Something along the lines of the United Federation of Planets would be about right. I think the Cylons might be negotiated with at this point, primarily because they’re so confused and divided they don’t really know what they want.

    I’m just saying that if they do find Earth, and it’s similar to our Earth, we’re just going to get chewed up by both parties. Remember that “simulated” video on Galactica 1980 of the Earth being destroyed by Cylon raiders?

  61. Pike says:

    Mercifully, just about the only thing I remember about 1980 is Starbuck and Apollo observing a jammed freeway and remarking on the level of discipline it took to maintain such a tight formation.

    Oh, and flying motorcycles. They fraking rule.

    BTW, everyone seems to be assuming the music heard was a radio signal from earth (not suprising given that it was often heard around radios.) But, only the nearly-final four heard it, and not always near a radio. So whatever it was, it wasn’t that.

  62. Pike says:

    Oh, and as far as I can tell, it’s STILL not out on iTunes. Meanwhile, I grabbed a torrent, watched it, listened to the podcast, and posted a bunch of crap. (As a bonus, I can actually use this video to make stupid parody videos and whatnot.) There’s simply no excuse for this. They had the final burn in time to provide it to SciFi, why does it take so long to go live on iTunes? It was hard enough to avoid spoilers before it aired. Well nigh impossible afterwards.

    You want to know why people “pirate” videos? This is it. It IS possible to compete with free (I’d gladly pay two bucks for a bug-free, useable video) but you have to at least try.

  63. ViperTech418 says:

    MAN! If Tigh is a Cylon, of ANY sort, then the writers of the show have written themselves into a bad corner, because then they’d have to prove that skinjobs were around during the first Cylon war, and that somehow these skinjobs had developed a way, during or before the war itself, to exist in the area “between life and death”. This would directly contradict what was set up in the original miniseries, where Baltar says something to the effect of “The last time anyone saw a Cylon they looked like giant walking chrome toasters.” I can see Tyrol, Tori and Anders being Cylons, no problem. But not Tigh. No way. And if there were skinjobs back then, why didn’t they just infiltrate colonial defenses the way that Caprica six did?
    Another point. Where did the song come from? If it were being broadcast by the Cylons, in order to “wake up” the final five, then those basestars need to be full of nothing but D’anna models, because she’s the only Cylon who knows anything about the FF to begin with, and the other cylons “boxed” her, supposedly. This would also imply that the Cylons have been to Earth already.
    Final point. Does anyone remember when Starbuck was talking to Lee at the end? Did her voice sound like it was reverberating inside a helmet and being transmit over a radio frequency? I can’t remember. That would be a good clue as to whether or not SB is “head-SB” or not.

    This is going to be a LONG 10 months.

  64. Theorist says:

    But wait…the 4 are cylons and starbuck will have a major role in S4. RDM said so in multiple interviews.

  65. Athenor says:

    AFAIK, war 1 was the toasters basically shooting out of no where, in their ships. No secret agendas, no known infiltration…

    But guys. THE OTHER CYLONS DO NOT TALK OF THE FINAL 5. They aren’t allowed to think about them, investigate them.. Hell, in some regards they aren’t even supposed to mention them.

    I am sticking to my theories.

    Also, we now have two previous-context mysteries to talk about:

    1) Who gave Adama the slip in his room, in the miniseries? There are only 2 possible candidates on board, although apparently some other ones were floating around at the time. Perhaps it is a mystery not to be solved.

    2) I think it was Boomer who claimed there were 8 models left on the ships. I can’t remember if Baltar injected Tyorl or Helo.. I want to say Tyrol, which would make it boomer.

    Anyways. We know about D’anna. That’s one. We know about Sharon.. for now, let’s consider that two. It is a BIG stretch, but Gina could be considered 3.. I doubt it though.

    So.. that begs the question. Did Boomer/Athena know about the final 5 being members of the ship? Was Anders on the ship at that time? Did Athena just assume? Did the writers not know at the time?

    Was that just saying something to save the Chief’s life?

  66. Pike says:

    Viper, Her voice varied. On shots of Lee, it was radio-esque, on shots of her in the Viper, it was normal. This seems to be in keeping with their filming conventions. So, it’s in step with her being actually there, but we haven’t seen head-anybody in a similar situation, so who knows?

  67. Pike says:

    Athenor, it’s nice to be able to read your posts again (I skipped them after you said you were spoiled, because it’s too easy to give something away inadvertently.)

    I’ll have to rewatch it, but as I remember, Baltar was giving Boomer a count over Tyrol’s body, and she said either a number that matched the count he was on or was the next in the sequence. I always considered it suspect for that reason.

  68. Athenor says:

    True.. but I wouldn’t put it past the series. They have to retcon now, after all. 😉

    Not that it’s hard.

    BTW, you’ll note I didn’t post after I said I was spoiled. 😉

  69. Pike says:

    Athenor, You did five times in that thread alone!

    And, yeah, they do love the retcons.

  70. Athenor says:

    I… did? Erm. Oh. Okay. Yeah. Maybe.


    … is it too late to use the “someone else posting under my name” excuse? Yeah? … Damn.

    Okay, fine, go read what I posted, and tell me if I gave it away! I think I did pretty good, eh?

    Oh, and hint about my theory: Just think about how Sharon was able to interface with a fiber optic cable, while at the same time going detected as completely human by multiple devices that would more likely than not pick up something that would make a “latching” sound.

  71. Scargums says:

    loved the podcast, as always, and I hope they are longer than shorter. Thanks for all the podcasts so far, and for all the ones we have to look forward to. Pumped for the re-watches too.

  72. ViperTech418 says:


    RDM also said that Starbuck was unequivocally DEAD, which she is apparently not. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice…

    Thanks for the refresh Pike. I need to watch it again.

  73. Josh says:

    I don’t have all the DVDs so I’ll be rewatching in my mind

  74. ByYourCommand says:

    Regarding Col. Tigh as a cylon – 40 years, 2 wars, combat. Does anyone remember back in the Mini when Baltar is being interviewed by the media from his home? Remember when he made the off handed remark about the moratorium on artificial intelligence that was currently in place? Well, not only is it possible that Tigh is a cylon, he could be one of the originals. And consider this: Joseph Adama was a defender of the undesirables, and an observer of human behavior. What if he defended or in some way assisted the original AI models from the humans who wished to destroy them? Is it possible that the originals are the final 5, whom the seven others know nothing about on purpose? Let’s say Tigh was indeed, a cylon, and was not planted into society, but released to blend into society as a way of saving his “life”? It is quite possible for him to be a cylon, and on some level, has an indebtedness to humanity that aligns him with humans. The “fundamentally different thing RDM refers to. No matter what else he may be, he is Saul Tigh. The other 3 (Tori, Anders, & Chief) might have been AI children at the time and were also buried amongst the populous for protection, which explains the whole “song from childhood” thing.

    I have yet to see anyone comment on the fact that Starbuck’s ovary was removed from her in The Farm, and what the implications are of that in relation to her “re-appearance”. It’s funny, when I first saw her, my initial thought was she look “stoned”. Her eyes just weren’t right, lol. Then I thought, holy frak, what IF it really is the original Starbuck, and the one we knew was a cylon? I always had a sneaky suspicion she might be. There was just something “off” about her. It was solidified in Unfinished Business with the look on her face as Lee congratulates her and Sam on their marriage. There have been several instances over the 3 seasons where she seems to have a “does not compute” type of air to her when she is under emotional duress. She never really connects with anybody, just doesn’t get it. It’s entirely possible she was also hidden amongst the populus like Anders and Tori. Is she a final 5? I’m not sure.

    Did anyone else notice that there were 5 judges on the tribunal council? It’s really odd when they are filing into the courtroom to hand down the verdict. The chairs they are seated in seem to resemble those white draperies we see in relation to the “glowies”. I call them glowies because I am not convinced they are cylons. It is possible, as people have mentioned, that they are benevolent forms of the gods from Kobol. At any rate, Six and Baltar did not have a look of relief or serenity on their faces when they looked back and up at them. It was more like pure fear.

    I am thinking Roslin may just be the aged version of Hera, seeing as how the cycle keeps repeating itself. But why is Hera the most wanted sentient being in the Galactica universe? Maybe she grows up to be the dying leader, and something is trying to prevent that or manipulate it in some way.

    I think I have given everyone enough to chew on for a bit…lol.

  75. Armando says:

    MAN! If Tigh is a Cylon, of ANY sort, then the writers of the show have written themselves into a bad corner, because then they’d have to prove that skinjobs were around during the first Cylon war, and that somehow these skinjobs had developed a way, during or before the war itself, to exist in the area “between life and death”. This would directly contradict what was set up in the original miniseries, where Baltar says something to the effect of “The last time anyone saw a Cylon they looked like giant walking chrome toasters.” >>

    Vipertech, keep in mind that not even the Cylons know who the final five are, except for D’eanna and she’s in no position to tell anybody. For all we know the Final Five ARE the original Cylons and are thousands of years old…only nobody knows it (which raises all sorts of other questions, sure. And not that having Tigh as a cylon doesn’t raise all sorts of concerns, sure, but…)

  76. MotherFraker says:

    Someone might have already said this– I admit I didn’t read all the comments because there were so many and I’m just wasting time before a phone interview. Maybe Starbuck got her Viper on Earth? If everyone started out on similar ships from Kobol and then went their separate ways, it isn’t too crazy to assume that their engineering styles might have evolved in a similar way, right? I think I’ve been thinking about this too much…

  77. ViperTech418 says:


    Hmm…Well, if the final five are the “original” cylons, and could be thousands of years old, then what exactly did the colonists create? Crude metal copies? I don’t recall seeing one red eye zapping back and forth under those white robes. I thought one of the central premises of the show was that human beings created the cylons, and that they rebelled and evolved. The rebellion was, according to the time scale on the show, 40-ish years ago. Presumably, the cylons that existed at that time were the toasters. This is the notion that Baltar is talking about. The idea that there were cylons around before human beings invented cylons would be both irrational and would take a lot of steam out of Adama’s speech at Galactica’s decomissioning in the original series, where he talks about our attempts at playing god, as well as all of Six’s talk of Cylon’s being “humanity’s children”

    But, hey. You could be right about this after all. I saw Starbucks Viper explode a few weeks ago. Apparently all bets are off.

  78. MotherFraker says:

    Josh: Take a look at this website. I don’t have the DVDs either, so I watched all the episodes I missed this way.

  79. Tigh's Eyepatch says:

    Wow, it’s been hard as hell staying away from the internet today. As soon as I opened up Digg this morning, it was “Battlestar Galactica: “What the FRAK just happened!!!”. I knew it was gonna be a loooong day.

    Pike, you and I are on the same boat. I came home from work today expecting to find Galactica on my iTunes, and was sorely disappointed. There is absolutely no excuse for them to be pulling this crap, especially when we frakkin’ pay for it, AND considering the fact that it happened for the Season 3 premiere, as well. I had to resort to BitTorrent as well. Are you listening, MPAA???

    Just as I finished watching the BitTorrent, tho, the iTunes dload showed up. Such is Murphy’s Law.

    My boy Tigh is a Cylon. Everyone saw it coming after last week, but still, frakking genius! How much more can this man suffer??? This is gonna add some interesting dimension to his character. I’m sure Michael Hogan’s gonna run with it. I smell an Emmy.

    What a frakking great ep. I stand by my Hylon theory for now, but I do admit that there’s much on this thread to think about. I think that I’ve succumbed to my personal biases and ignored the religious angle a bit too much. I might have to revise.

    ByYourCommand, you make an interesting point with Tigh and the nature of the Final Five Cylons. . . can hear the writers now: “We may be able to write Hogan into ‘Caprica’ yet!”

    I mention Kara’s ovary in my reader theory. If Kara is a Hylon, the Cylons might have had to remove it in order to create a viable clone for her to download into.

    Off to listen to the podcast, will be back tomorrow. And the day after, and after that, all thanks to the GWC Three. You guys are gonna make the next ten months that much easier. Thanks!!

  80. Stephanie says:

    Another off-the-wall post from left field (which Luc might enjoy):
    Back to the watch tower idea – a watch tower is a fortification that is used to protect something else, typically land. What if the nebula itself is a watch tower? Arriving there set of the ‘alarm’, hence the song, visions, etc. We’re at the Distant Early Warning line?

  81. Zigdon says:

    One thing about Tigh – he SAYS he’s the same Tigh from the first war, and might certainly believe it. Doesn’t mean it’s not a planted memory in a skinjob created to replace the real Tigh.

    No, I don’t believe that’s the case, but it could be!


  82. Ray says:

    I haven’t read most of the comments above yet, I’m getting round to it, I just wanted to post a quick thought, although I could type ridiculous amounts on this episode.

    Starbuck returned in a viper, I assume her viper. Vipers don’t have FTL drives, so how did she reappear out of nowhere? It must be some kind of wormhole, or some higher power is behind it (Maybe Leoben-of-Christmas-Past?). I don’t see her finding her way into the Maelstrom by chance, it happened for a reason, as part of her destiny, being lured into it by that phantom heavy raider. So some Power must have taken her to Earth and back again, some Power must want the Fleet to reach Earth. For every answer there’s so many more questions that arise.

    Here’s another: What did Starbuck do on her trip to Earth? Perhaps she did her best to blend in with the Earthlings, had just enough time to start up a successful chain of coffee shops, then was suddenly called back by Head Leoben to continue her duties as the saviour of humanity.

  83. Athenor says:

    Holy frakking hell.

    go to that link to Bear’s web blog again, and look at the first pic.

    It’s a clean-shaven Baltar.

    … It is Head-baltar. FRAK.

  84. frank says:

    Motherfrakker, thanks for the link, awesome site!!!!
    That will help a lot of people!!!!!

  85. Cole says:

    I keep reading about BSG being cyclical in nature. Where does this come from and how is it cylical?

  86. Athenor says:

    Guys.. I found something big. REALLY BIG. While trying to hunt for pics that prove it’s head baltar and head six.

    I’ll be uploading in the next few minutes. I need to get clear screengrabs.

  87. Athenor says:

    So here’s the deal.

    first time I watched the ep, I got a feeling there was more in the dream sequences than we were led to believe. Something kept nagging me… Something I couldn’t quite place.

    Around the various forums I post at, I posted above theories on Head Baltar being the one in the dream. I needed proof that it was Head Six, and therefore it couldn’t be Six’s hallucination.

    I got more than I bargained for.

    The light on the only scene with Six’s hand is very intense. I was single-frame tabbing through them, to see if there was one where you could see head Six’s distinctive jewelry. No such luck. I went a frame past that.. and saw something.. unexpected.

    Going back through the sequence, I found 2 other shots like this.

    Now, being the type I am, I went to get screencaps. And being the type my computer is, it gave me a bitchslap, by combining the frames all around it to get a proper shot. In other words, I couldn’t get a proper screengrab. And when I tried to using other software techniques… it didn’t work. Stupid DirectX.

    So here’s the best I got.

    shot #1:

    This is of a woman. The orientation is directly opposite of Roslins. The facial structure implies glasses, but Roslin isn’t wearing hers in these scenes.

    The hair is too short as well.

    Shot #2:

    This was the big one, and the one I was hoping, DESPERATELY, to turn out right. It didn’t. So I’ll have to describe it.

    This is a shot of Athena, or Boomer, or Sharon. Athena identifies it as her. I can’t read the nametags.

    You may notice a shilouette on the left? It’s a creature. Draped in white. Glaring the Screen. It’s a final 5…. Maybe. All you can make out of its facial figures is its eye and its mouth.

    Shot #3:

    this one, unfortunately, turned out the worst of all. Nothing identifiable in the picture.

    It’s the one you all probably saw, though. The final 5, standing on the balcony, looking down.

    I can’t prove these to you definitively. All I can say is to take your DVR’s, or whatever, and go through the dream sequence frame by frame. There’s 2 other single-frame shots (one of Hera, one of Baltar).

    I have my own theory, but this post doesn’t deserve to be sullied up with my thoughts. However, I think this is BIG. And if you want to talk about the minute that impacts the whole…. I think this is it.

  88. Eyeless says:

    Well, it could be, but Baltar’s been clean-shaven before. Maybe that was a scene from the past.

  89. Athenor says:

    … Another thing, as I’m surveying ep 1 for anything else.

    Racetrack ID’ed 5 baseships before she jumped to catch up with the fleet.

    When they arrived in the Nebula, there were only 4.

  90. Athenor says:

    Last post unless someone else comments…

    But I’m in conspiracy mode.

    I’m re-watching part 1. The irony in Six and Tigh’s conversation is staggering.

    And I just noticed a high-pitched whine when she punched him that I never did before.

    It would fit with my theories if those whines weren’t music, but indeed sound effects. After all, they accompany the appearances of H-S and H-B, and anything overly physical on the cylon’s part..

  91. idontlikeroslin says:

    i’m honestly kinda shocked so many people like this finale…
    it seems too “lets throw a bunch of random things together and watch if it sticks”

    and the music? wtf
    what i loved about bsg in the first place was how gorgeous and eerie the music was… now they’re blasting rock music and reciting hendrix lyrics?

    i’m pretty disappointed in the finale tbh

  92. Athenor says:


    A song doesn’t need to use classical and strings to be gorgeous and eerie. I know a lot of modern song lyrics are really moving.

    Plus, the lyrics fit the episode amazingly well.

  93. Athenor says:

    Alright. Thanks to a friend named StormyWaters, we have actual DECENT screencaps of #2 and 3!



    #3 is important in its own way, because you see it before Six’s personal flashback.

  94. Pike says:

    OK, I will have to say that I’m sort of with idontlikeroslin in that once the penultimate-four started to sing it, it seemed to verge on self-parody. I think they pulled out of that just a bit too late. I’m thinking it’s because I figured out the reference before they did that, and they weren’t expecting their audience to do that.

    Cole, the cyclical nature has been a theme from Season one. “All this has happened before, all this will happen again.”

  95. Athenor says:

    Man… going back to earlier seasons to double check stuff is just freaking me out.

    I’m watching the opera house stuff in Kobol’s Last Gleaming, part 2.

    1) Head Six is wearing the same dress that “Six” is in Crossroads, part 2.

    2) In Kobol, there are 8 beams/cloths of light in the opera house, compared to the 5 in Crossroads and Eye of Jupiter (I checked that ep too).

    I have a theory about the birth of a new “final 5” that I’m playing with. Not fully realized yet, mind you, and a new wrinkle just entered into my head. But.. if there really are 6 figures in that opera house… and there are 3 more drapes beyond that in the original opera house… that would leave 2 extra drapes… Hera and Callie’s kid.

  96. Les Vogt says:

    Dear idontlikeroslin: It’s Dylan lyrics. Hendrix did a version.

    And I think it was great. They are picking up earth music as a signal to “awaken” them as they approach earth. The 4 of 5 new Cylons, I think, are Earth-based cylons rather than Caprica-based cylons. Hera and Nicky (cylon dad, human mom) could eventually produce multi-hybrid offspring.

    4 great moments in this very fun ep. Lee’s speech, the realization of the dream meeting in the opera house, the cylon reveal, especially Tigh’s “Woe!” and Kara’s special destiny revealed ( I guessed that one was coming when she crashed).

    And I like Roslyn very much.

  97. Armando says:


    Well, I didn’t say it was all clean and easy. Hell, the Cylons used to have a plan. Now it seems they’re just winging it. But then, plans change. And that’s the thing: with Tory and Anders, well, we don’t really know a whole lot about their pasts (although with a professional athlete you’d think the media would’ve gotten a hold of high school pictures, he would’ve had to have a high school and/or collegiate career, after all, etc.) and although we know a bit about Tyrol’s (his parents being priests/oracles/academics of some sort) it’s murky enough, like Sharon Valerii’s, that it is feasible that they’re all implanted memories. But Tigh? Not only do we know he fought in the FIRST cylon war, we’ve seen flashbacks to his younger self in the early episodes of season 2. So obviously, something is different about the final five cylons. Or maybe not. Maybe ALL of them are cylons of some sort or another. Or maybe the whole “it has happened before, it will happen again” nature of time on BSG comes into play here. I guess we won’t know until 2008, will we?

    Is it January yet? 😉

  98. Armando says:

    You know, Idon’tlikeroslin, I’ve been a fan of the way BSG is scored from the beginning. I thought that the introduction of quasi-rock music at the beginning of “Pegasus” didn’t work, as it took something away from the reality established in the show (don’t ask me what, though). But for some reason, the Dylan song at the end of last night’s episode worked for me. I’ve watched it online again and it still works for me. I don’t know why.

  99. 13th Cylon says:

    Armando- I love the Pegasus and the start of Lay Down Your Burdens Pt II’s music. It’s funny because I wasn’t totally sold on the song from last night. I think it’s because all the other songs from the show that we’ve heard have included non-English vocals. I liked it a little better the second time I watched it, though.

  100. Athenor says:

    Okay, forgive me on this, but.. Pike, 13th, I really want to hear your theories on what I’ve been talking about.

    13th especially, given I have been thinking about your name ever since seeing the 6th. =P

    Yes! I’m calling you to the mat! Hoo-yah!


  101. Armando says:

    Les Vogt,

    Bear McCreary’s blog states that the song, according to Moore, is not actually supposed to be an earth lyric. It’s supposed to be more like a songwriter in the BSG universe somehow had the same idea as Dylan did on earth, somehow pulling the song out of the creative ether (this is an old idea, although I don’t remember whether or not the theory has a name: that works of art exist in their own, ethereal world and are only pulled into our own by artists who are more atuned to that creative ether. I think it might come from Schopenhauer…or ancient Greece. I’m not sure. I’m also not a fan of it, since I know from experience that art takes a lot of work…but whatever).

  102. Athenor says:

    Armando, I don’t buy that bull for a second. I think RDM knew Bear would spill the beans, and gave him a line. =P

  103. Pike says:

    Armando, Remember, that’s the ‘stage directions’ RDM gave to Bear. It doesn’t neccesarily mean that that’s the reality of the situatio.

    I think the idea of muses informing mortals comes from ancient Greece, although it may predate that.

    And while I’m with you on the effort involved in producing art, there are times when it takes on its own life. Sometimes that’s a help, and sometimes it’s a hinderance. (From my POV, it’s almost always a hinderance…)

  104. Athenor says:

    So, remember me mentioning Bear’s podcast, and such?

    Kobol’s Last Gleaming, part 2:

    Crossroads, part 2 (second dream scene):

  105. Athenor says:

    Oh, wow guys. I must be coming across as a nut.

    All my posts are currently awaiting moderation. Thus, you guys aren’t seeing any of what I’m posting!

    Don’t worry, it’ll be there.

  106. Athenor says:

    Frak it. These will hopefully come out of moderation in posting order, so here’s the third pic of the two above: Head Baltar.

    The clothes are definitely different, but I couldn’t think of a more recent picture with Head Baltar in decent view.

  107. Eyeless says:

    Athenor wrote: “I think RDM knew Bear would spill the beans, and gave him a line. =P”

    You’re exactly right. RDM is one crafty bastard (in a nice way ;)). Remember his podcast for Maelstrom? LOL. He talked about this whole conversation with Katie Sackhoff about her leaving the show and her future career and blah blah blah. Hahahaha he’s funny.

    And yeah, Bear has spilled beans in the past, much as I love him. He gave away the fact that the three episodes before Maelstrom were pointless stand-alones, and he posted the Starbuck spoiler rather early if you ask me. And he’s also been on podcasts where he’s sometimes said a bit much. =D

    The song is definitely from earth in my opinion. Besides, if it isn’t, you have to invoke some sort of divine inspiration for both Bob Dylan and the Cylons. OMG Bob Dylan is a Cylon! >_>

    About the music discussion everyone’s having, there is no bigger fan of Galactica music than me. I have all the soundtracks and love nearly every track on them. Especially finale music:

    Season 1 Finale: Passacaglia. Absolutely brilliant five-minute string piece hinted at many times after season 1.

    Season 2 Finale: Something Dark is Coming. Awesome bass guitar work, very ominous and military while vaguely modern.

    Season 3 Finale: I don’t remember anything that inspiring at the beginning, but at the end we have the Dylan cover. Now I absolutely loved it. Ever since the guitar riffs began as the four Cylon reveals strode into the room, the music blew me away. It was so non-Battlestar Galactica that you just knew the rest of the episode would be downright weird and eerie. Like the Pegasus opening, where the music was just so strange and out-of-place that it accentuates Adama’s line “It’s like a dream.”

  108. Athenor says:

    Eyeless.. you don’t want to hear the full orchistration of “OMG LOOK IN THE SKY WHAT THE FRAK IS THAT?!”

    For shame. =P

  109. Les Vogt says:

    Listening to your podcast now.

    The 4 cylons protect the people they serve. Anders protected Starbuck, as he could. He was compelled to be with her. Again, I don’t think she’s a cylon but a special person… the chosen one with a special destiny to lead the way to earth, in a different sense than Roslyn.

    Remember when Cavil was counciling Tyrol, “Of course your not a cylon, I’ve never seen you at the meetings.” Then we find out Cavil is a cylon and it has a second meaning and now a third. Cool.

    The song signal could be coming from a ship rather than directly from earth.

  110. The 13th Cylon says:

    Athenor- I can’t give away all my Cylon secrets. Am I a good, “remformed” Cylon or am I a nasty Cylon? For real though, at work today, I could’ve sworn I heard that opening tune that the 4 were hearing and I was thinking “Oh crap, it’s happening. No way.” Then I was like, oh hell, I’m a Cylon. But we already knew that, didn’t we.

    And I’m going on the record as saying that at the Cylon meetings I specifically asked them not to go with the creepy white glowing look. It scares the craap out of me. But then again, it beats Aaron Doral’s suits, so I guess we’ll just have to work with the bleached Jedi cloaks.

    One thing I’ve been thinking about since last night was Six’s comment way back when of how she was an angel sent to protect Gauis. This apparant new religious cult that Baltar is the head of would support her statement.

    And isn’t it interesting that back at the start of the series how Boomer and the Chief were all shagging each other. Is it a natural attraction of sleeper Cylons? So many wonderful things to smoke on for the next 3/4 of a year. Luckily the Cain/ Pegasus movie will be great.

  111. WackoTTL says:

    Baltar should not be found guilty of any crime, but he SHOULD be airlocked. Without Baltar…

    1. No initial attacks
    2. No destruction of cloud 9
    3. No death of admiral Cain
    4. No settlement on new Caprica
    5. No destruction of Pegasus

    The list goes on and on. Airlock that frakker before he kills again!

    This is the same reason Cally killed boomer, and she was totally right. Keep her around and she will just keep messing with you. kill them now and end the cancer.

    Thank the Gods that Gaeta is smart enough to work that out. He tired to kill him twice, and he lied to find justice.

  112. Cavatar says:

    WackoTTL, I must disagree with you slightly here.

    Your first point, I do feel there would have been attacks on the 12 colonies. They just would not have been as successful.

    And as for the death of Admiral Cain, well there are arguments that her death was actually a positive.

    Other than that, you make some good points here.


  113. MotherFraker says:

    Galactica Watercooler:

    I was listening to the podcast and you mentioned that in the Mini the Cylons were able to turn off most of the Colonies’ defenses because of Baltar’s “code” or defense mainframe (Skynet?). The actual reason that the Cylons couldn’t turn off the Galactica’s systems was because Adama was a traditionalist. It was one of the oldest Battlestars (remember it was being retired) and Adama refused to network the systems because he knew that would make them too vulnerable to the Cylons should they ever attack again. Also: remember that the Vipers they are flying were referred to as antiques or something like that ‘We’ve got pilots, but no birds’ and then they decided to take the display Vipers– and they had to drag them to the other hangar bay because the one they were in had been turned into a gift shop.

    My theory about the fleet-wide power outage is that it was used to cover Baltar’s escape. It was too convenient that the three nutbags ran into him when the power happened to be out. Shuttles coming and going wouldn’t be detected when the power was out, so nobody but the nutjobs would know where Baltar went.

  114. BoxytheBoxed says:

    not 2008??? RDM said that the movie would be like an extra 2 episondes from season4 i think about the battle, and Starbuck also he said Caprica would prob. be a movie

  115. Lt. Slingshot says:

    I’m almost at a loss for words. I finally got around to watching and that wasn’t what I was expecting at all but I’m pleased. Loved Lee’s speech, Tigh Rocks, I was not liking All Along the Watchtower at first but I’ll admit it grabbed me by the end and Kara is back! Well maybe…

    Athenor… little tip… If you limit it to one link per post it won’t get stuck in moderation. I think it is some default setting in the ware to protect against spam.

  116. MotherFraker says:

    Just to clarify about the fact that the Cylons couldn’t frak up the Battlestar Galactica’s systems: At the beginning of the Mini, Aaron Doral says, “This ship, the last of her kind still in service, was constructed over 50 years ago during the first Cylon war.” And a little later, “You’ll see things here that seem odd or even antiquated to modern eyes. Like phones with cords, awkward manual valves, computers that, well, barely deserve the name. It was all designed to operate against an enemy who could infiltrate and disrupt even the most basic computer systems. Galactica is a reminder of a time when we were so afraid of our enemies we literally looked backward for protection.”

  117. Pike says:

    Hmmm. I took a look at the production shot of the final five that was linked above, and I noticed something interesting. Now, I’m sure they’re using extras to stand in for the five (no way would they put the actual people in there—too much chance for leaks to get out) but it is interesting that they used two women and three men. That would seem to point towards the ‘final fifth’ being a man. So, not Starbuck, but then who?

  118. David W. Griffin says:

    “Baltar should not be found guilty of any crime, but he SHOULD be airlocked. Without Baltar…
    1. No initial attacks
    2. No destruction of cloud 9
    3. No death of admiral Cain
    4. No settlement on new Caprica
    5. No destruction of Pegasus”

    Well first of all, if you want justice for yourself (instead of being “airlocked” the next time somebody thinks you might be guilty of something) then that justice has to apply to everyone. Either it applies to everyone or it applies to no-one. After all the innocent shouldn’t be brought to trial at all right, so if you’re accused and tried, lots of people will assume you are guilty.

    Second I suspect that the Cylons could have figured out some other scientist to subborn or some other way into the code without too much problem so I think point 1 is false. Point 2 is certainly true. Cain was a monster and is better destroyed — should have given 6 and Baltar medals for that one. Point 4 — true, but not a war crime. What if the Cylons hadn’t found them? And I’m not sure I understand 5. Why did Baltar lead to Lee’s decision to rescue the Galactica by sacrificing the Pegasus?

  119. Ray says:

    I’m surprised no one else has brought up the power outage’s possible relation to Starbuck yet (as far as I see). I think someone pointed out before how in Maelstrom, just before Kara stopped to have her ‘last’ conversation with Adama and Ms. Airlock, the lights in her section of the corridor went out, and came back on as she moved away from them. I assumed at the time it was just for dramatic effect, and that may be the case, but as soon as Adama’s light flickered while he was shaving, I was reminded of Starbuck. I don’t have any evidence other than it happened to spark my memory, and I really don’t have any explanation, but the last big power outage must have some explanation, otherwise it’s a pretty cheap plot device, which I doubt.

    It’d be cool to see if anyone else had the same vague thought.

  120. Armando says:


    Yeah, probably. I still thought it-surprisingly-worked.

  121. Michelle in NY says:

    Sorry all – I don’t think they are the final 4 or 5. I think the Cylons infected these people on new caprica to be sleeper agent traders made to think they are Cylons.

  122. Armando says:


    This is true, Pike. Very true. I don’t find it’s always a hindrance, however, and I’m usually aware, at least after a piece is finished, that when the music (in my case) takes a life of its own it still got to that point through a lot of planning and hard work on my part. I’ve very rarely been able to “grab” things from the ether and on the very rare chance that I have, I’ve seldom been happy with the result (which is probably what you have in mind when you say it’s a hindrance, which negates my previous sentences. Now I feel like a Cylon and his plan…). 🙂

  123. Wackottl says:


    I agree that there should be justice for everyone. That makes perfect since and I totally agree.

    but Baltar needs to stop being alive… literally.

    The more he lives, the more problems he will cause. By the end of season four there will be even more death due directly to a cowardly act of Gauis Baltar. You can take a look at every act and make a defense, and I won’t try to counter it. (although it is possible to do so) The simple fact is the universe would be a better place without him.

    So to quote a very smart man “kill him now! what are we waiting for?!”

  124. Athenor says:

    My posts are still in moderation. I assume that’ll get cleared up today; if it doesn’t, I’ll contact the crew. =)

  125. Nick says:

    As soon as the fleet jumped to the nebula they lost all powere. When the cylons showed up Galactica scrambled fighters but we got no scenes of Cylons launching raiders or firing off missiles. Is it possible that the basestars are affected by the same power outage and right now are sitting ducks? Hence the “Everything will be ok”

  126. Cavatar says:


    They lost power when the did the Dradis scan, they had power when they jumped in.

  127. David W. Griffin says:

    From an external perspective, Baltar is one of the more interesting characters. And he’s a lot less evil than the original Baltar from the original BG.

    In-game as Lee pointed out, almost everyone (including Adama and the president) have done some pretty awful things. Baltar (except for the nuclear weapon incident) is really just weak-minded and arrogant. And the head 6 would lead you to believe he’s also delusional (not exactly responsible for his actions). Based on what the Galacticans know, Baltar hasn’t done anything very criminal, at least compared to the horrors some of the other characters have done. Heck the chief’s wife murdered a Sharon and got administrative punishment. The president spaced a human cylon. The President and Adama tortured Baltar. Adama in the last week or two threatened to shoot the chief’s wife for having the temerity to stand up for the rights of those poor b^%$%%s in the tylium refinery ship. No Baltar isn’t the big villain in THIS Galactica. Baltar isn’t even on the first page of the war crimes hit list.

  128. Nick says:

    Ok.. “moments after they jumped” they lost all power. Besides, wouldn’t the first thing the Cylons do once they arrive is conduct a sensor sweep? Just a possibility that the Basestars are suffering the same outages that the colonial fleet did.

  129. Max Peck says:

    Interesting that now after seeing the finale, that song is now playing in my head…I can’t get no relief…

  130. Max Peck says:

    As Tyrol and Anders enter the busy hanger deck after the initial meeting of the “4 of 5 New Cylon BFF club”*:

    Cally: Where the hell have you been!

    Tyrol: Don’t worry I’ll tell you later…

    Oh to be a fly on the wall for that one…

    *also know as the Hendrix fan club – Galactica Chapter

  131. haitek says:

    I’m not huge on the watchtowers music either really but it did work great when they zoomed out to show they are in the milky way now (then zooming in on earth)

    one thing i’m wondering… the earth they showed didn’t seem to show any civilization… granted i only saw it briefly but i think even from space you can view cities… i remember looking hard at where atlanta and floriday cities would be and not seeing anything…

    so maybe the earth they find is in our past?

  132. Athenor says:

    WooHoo, my posts are out of moderation.. I think.

    So yeah.. scroll up and look at my big one, and then the shots I linked that clean it up… and… yeah. =)

  133. 13th Cylon says:

    Am I the only or is the podcast not up on iTunes yet? It looks like the RDM podcast isn’t up yet either.

  134. Stephanie says:

    Well, I think it must be an arrival in the past, otherwise who is going to build the Egyptian pyramids? I’ve believed that since I was a kid watching the original series!

  135. bryan w says:

    I’m not so sure we’ve seen the final five yet. An equally plausible explanation for why these particular four characters heard the tune and found their way to the same location is that they’ve all similarly been infected by other Cylons. Infected in the sense of a sexually transmitted disease, or what I’ll call an STC–Sexually Transmitted Cylonism.

    The Chief – from Boomer Sharon

    Colonel Tigh – from Ellen who was fooling with a Brother Kaval

    Sam – possibly from Starbuck but I think more likely from…

    Tori, who we don’t know enough about yet to say she wasn’t intimate with another sleeper earlier on (or if Kara is Cylon, just picked it up from Sam while consoling him in his grief).

    If President Roslin’s reaction during power outage was related – from Herra through blood transfusion

    Of course, if this theory tests out, the fact Baltar wasn’t affected by the tune suggests he’s a Cylon afterall (and likely to be the one Deanna saw and apologized to before dying).

    This accounts for all the people I can think of on Galactica that would be affected, except Helo and Cally. So my theory does have at least one hole. But then, they both had children with their Cylon/Cylon-infected partners. Maybe the virus was programmed to deactivate upon “motherhood” as a protective mechanism, to increase likelihood of successful propagation of the Cylon genotype. A parent with Hylon child in a world of humans will more likely be able to keep the kid alive if no one knows s/he’s Cylon/Cylon-infected.

    And we only saw what transpired aboard Galactica in this episode. Theoretically, there would’ve been similar gatherings taking place on all the ships among those who’d inadvertently bedded down with “sleeper” agents.

    If I’m right, or close, I have to applaud R. Moore big time. So many sci-fi aficionados in years past had great difficulty getting dates, and nowadays find each other online and jump right to fraking, if ya know what I mean. This despite somewhat undeveloped social skills and capacity for conversation or assessment on subject of reproductive hygiene. Moore might just have bestowed a tremendous gift to the world–well beyond the joy of watching clever and intriguing television–providing an essential PSA on the importance of getting to know your partner and/or using condoms, when away from the screen. A pretty indirect approach, but doesn’t this match the BSG style?

  136. Nacho says:

    Hey, what if Earth made there own Cylons and Starbuck is from there?

    As for Tigh and the others..well I think they are beeing manipulated. As was said by one fo the characters, the humans will tear themselves a part and all the cylons have to do is pick up the pieces.

  137. Athenor says:

    Tori fooled around with Anders after she started acting rebellious and hearing the music.

  138. Pike says:

    bryan w, really nice theory. Unfortunately, RDM has said in the numerous post-finale interviews that the Final 4/5ths are all actual Cylon(s/z), albeit “fundamentally different” than the Seven Skinjobs.

  139. Ray says:

    RDM’s comments on the true identity of the final five in recent interviews (possibly technically a spoiler, assuming he’s telling the truth, so skip this comment if you prefer to just speculate):

    Tigh, Tori, Anders and Tyrol are really cylons, but they are fundamentally different from the other 7 that we know regarding their origins. which will be explored next season.
    He also said we might discover the final fifth next season, which implies that Starbuck isn’t a cylon.

  140. Joe says:

    About the view of Earth from space…
    Depending on how careful they were on picking the landscape, that’s not the Earth I know an love. Look at google maps from space

    Lots of green! On BSG’s Earth there was lots of brown and much darker colors. So let’s ask ourselves this question, how much attention to detail did they pay when giving Earth a landscape?

  141. Joe says:

    p.s. click on the Satellite feature button

  142. Josh says:

    Are you saying the image we see of Earth is perhaps in the far future…after the Cylons have invaded and taken over Earth, hense destroying all the wildlife in a massive nuclear war? 🙂

  143. Ray says:

    I don’t think the BSG Earth looks too different from Google’s pic. There are greens, browns and darker shades in places on both to my eyes. Don’t forget that in the BSG view, we see the Sun in the same frame, which means the side we saw was on the transition from night to day (or perhaps the other way round if I’m mistaken). Hence a slightly darker appearance compared to Google’s composite satellite pics taken in full light.

    According to RDM, the BSG version of Watchtower isn’t necessarily a radio transmission from Earth, maybe just a very big coincidence (Like you might take them speaking almost exactly modern English, save for a word or two, as a coincidence). Which, I think, just gives them the flexibility to say Galactica doesn’t necessarily get to Earth after the late 1960’s or whenever the song was made.

  144. Joe says:

    I’m randomly relisteing to the RDM podcast from Kobol’s Last Gleaming. RDM mentions an alternate version where Baltar walks into the Kobol temple and finding Dirk Benedict playing a “familiar Jimi Hendrix song” on the piano.
    That just proves BSG is still going strong. These ideas have been around since season 1!

  145. fuzzyelf says:

    Ok…I’ve been quiet for some time now…and mostly I lurk b/c I go the iTunes route and that puts me waaay behind everybody else, but lordy lou. And please forgive me if I repeat anything that’s been discussed…1. I really can’t believe they just handed us 4 of the final 5 – what? are they gonna drag out the last cylon for how many seasons? no way. Second…I had hairs stand up on the back of my neck and actually became a little ill when Roslin went into 6’s cell and spoke so intimately with her. Anybody? I’m thinkin’ there’s your Cylon reveal. Sickening as it is…I hope I’m wrong. 3. Gaeta, you dog! 4. I love the idea of head Starbuck. love it. 5. Lawyer Bill rox! 6. Where the bleep is Zarek??? ok. guess that’s enough for now. Can’t wait for the re-watch – hope to be more involved there….and thanks again for the podcast. I officially look foward to it as much as the episodes themselves!

  146. ByYourCommand says:

    It’s entirely possible that skin jobs were a top secret military research and development project. That would explain Tigh being in the Admiral’s life for 40 years, and covers all the time for the 2 wars, etc. Col. Tigh was probably the first model. He was developed for the government to be a “model soldier”. It keeps the project funded, and the researchers can continue the development of the AI and the biological framework. Always “improving” on their creation, to meet the needs of the government and pushing the boundaries. Some researcher like Baltar has the brilliant idea that in order to control costs, limit the amount of frameworks (i.e. models), and create a recycling program. Research takes another direction with cloning, which of course, the powerbrokers in the military, government, and the private sector can all buy into so the project funding is no problem.

    All the while, the government is churning out bare metal models to society to keep the project funded, cheap labor, domestic help. etc. This also helps to explain why everyone thinks that all cylons ever were was chrome toasters.

    Just stands to reason that there is a development arc of models, so maybe there are models who were developed to be self aware. And maybe one of the self aware models somehow escaped the program, was stolen, or sold off the books to some Dr. Shrinker type like Baltar. It would only take one model to start a chain reaction for the original cylon rebellion. Baltar probably broke the model’s heart that he fashioned to be his “fantasy woman come true”. He admits that he has a “problem” with promiscuity from the start.

    See…it really IS all Baltar’s fault, lol!

    And the rest, is “history” so to speak.

  147. fuzzyelf says:

    ok, ok…one more thing….I think Tori is sick b/c she’s preggers from Anders. And when He and Starbuck and Tori all realize they’re human, the shite’s gonna hit the fan. Then maybe they’ll have a big cat-fight and it’ll be a big cartoon plume and every now and then, Starbuck or Dee or even Roslin will pop up out of it and I don’t know where I’m going with this, but the mental picture is entertaining.

  148. bryan w says:

    Hi Pike, Glad you dug my theory. (See about 12 up the thread.) Not sure if your RDM citation refutes it…

    “RDM has said in the numerous post-finale interviews that the Final 4/5ths are all actual Cylon”…

    unless he said 4 or 5 final skin-job cylons would definitely be revealed in this episode. The Cylon explanation for these 4 coming together only came as a declaration from Chief Tyrol, who as we’ve seen is already psychologically haunted by idea of being Cylon. No one else there seemed able to make sense of how it could be possible.

    Seems to me that Roslin, Thrace, and/or Baltar (again), and/or possibly even Apollo (seeing the “head”-Kara) are more likely to be among the final 5.

  149. 13th Cylon says:

    Yay, the GWC podcast is finally up on iTunes!

    ByYourCommand- I really like the theory of Tigh being an military project. I find it so ironic that he’s a Cylon since he flat out hates them more than anyone else. I really loved his little speech about how he’s Saul Tigh, and officer in the Colonial military, and that’s the man he is. As messed up as he is, he’s become my favorite character since the infamous webisodes.

    “Talk to him, make him understand that we need him! Throw in some poetic craap about the struggle for liberty against the Cylon oppressors, whatever it takes! We need more people or this resistance movement is going to die in its crib.” And he even says it right in front of little baby Nick. lol

  150. Pike says:

    bryan w, No, the way he was phrasing it, these are the penultimate four. Just about no weasel words there (trust me, I checked.) I really like your theory though, and I’ve realized that the staff just paints themselves into corners to see how they get out of it, so who knows what’s going to happen?

    The only quibble I have with your scenario is that I like to think that Tori got the bug from Boomer, while she was on the outs with the Chief.

    I’ll be in my bunk..

  151. Pike says:

    Oh yeah, 13th, GWC was up relatively early. Make sure you’re hitting “refresh” (’cause the default (at least on a Mac) is to check every 12 hours.)

    iTunes, OTOH, was an entirely different story…

  152. suzanne says:

    athenor- i agree about your comments on the “there are only 12 models” slip of paper that adama puts in a safe place in the mini. i have been thinking about how that paper got there. i think it may have been a one-off at the time of the mini, but now it seems that either (1) someone placed that note in his office, such as Tigh,(2) he learned this in talking with the leoben at rangor anchorage, or (3) he knew this from some other source (which is the most sinister possibility). is adama a cylon, as the leoben in “flesh and bone” stated? or does he know more about the cylons from military sources than he wants to admit? just when does adama share his knowledge with the fleet about “only 12 models”? i still have the feeling adama knows more than he admits…does he know tigh is a cylon, and has been protecting him all this time? did the military know about the f5 but not the other 7 until the attacks?

    by your command, i love your “released into the wild” theory for the final 5. it explains a lot, especially about tigh. he has been a frak-up for at least all the time he knows adama (remember how adama saves his skin in the bar in a tigh flashback).

    nebula = ship of lights? it scrambled the power on all the ships ( i think the cylons down as well, or else we would have seen raiders), all those twinkly lights in the nebula made me think of the ship of lights. kara appears, all shiny and new and lit up and with knowledge of earth…

    also, was tory a resistance leader on new caprica? it is interesting that tigh, anders, and the chief were all leaders of the resistance on new caprica. lends credibility to the theory that the f5 have a different (and opposing) agenda from the other 7.

  153. Audra says:

    David W. Griffin – Now, what kind of show would it be if everyone transformed into sexy young women? (I’ll give you a hint: a show aimed at men who mainly want to look at sexy women.) Besides, BSG has one of the hottest casts I’ve ever seen in television, female AND male.
    More comments when I finish reading!

  154. Chip Phillips says:

    So this may or may not mean anything but there are no visible sateliltes in the final screen cap of Earth, Nor any indication of Civilization. Purposfully ambiguous or is it an indication of the time frame?

    Was it just me or did Roslin Freak the Frak out five whole seconds right before the power outage? I immediately thought she was the fifth cylon until starbuck showed up and made me question which person was more likely. Perhaps Roslin isn’t the fifth but whatever caused the outage also messed up whatever part of her is now cylon because of Hera’s injected cells.

    The thirteenth tribe question? Is the RTF the thirteenth tribe that goes back in time to settle on Earth? And where were the Cylons the whole time inbetween the original war and now? Where is their home world? Did they have a home world? Is it Earth? Have they been stringing along the RTF this whole time just to repeat some kind of cosmic cycle?

    I want answers and I dont want to wait 10 Fracking months to get them..

  155. Gray says:

    I think I’ve said it before but I agree that RDM seems to have confirmed that the four cylons revealed in part II are in fact Cylons.
    And I think the move makes since considering S.4 is likely to be the last. Why waste time and plot points slowly revealing them one by one if the four revealed have one story that can gel with all the plot points RDM and DE want to hit.
    I also like By Your Command’s theory but Tigh is one hell of a model soldier. Guess they didn’t factor in the hooch.
    And it crossed my mind too that Tori could be pregnant. And even this Zen Starbuck probably can’t be too cool with that. Let’s hope Tory’s not pregnant.
    I think I read a theory somewhere that posited Starbuck was being groomed by a higher power to accept a Cylon partner and Leoben was just practice. Kinda frakked up but I don’t buy into it.
    Also- wouldn’t it have been a real mindfrak if Kara really is dead, or if she HAD really been dead before the finale to come back and be like, “Surprise! Kacey is her kid.”

  156. Gray says:

    sense. i need spellcheck.

  157. Saberhawk says:

    I admit that I was at first a proponent of the F4 being “duped” and implanted into thinking they were cylon(s)z, but now I am going to go with RDM and belive him when he says they are and that they are fundamentally different. If for no other reason than it allows both he and the writers to further explore/blurr the line between human and cylon. It really opens a ton of story possibilities without bringing in the “borg” or “Ori” in order to extend the show.

    I had a thought that Papadama might still be the 12th model. If Tigh could be one then Adama could be as well. We have seen how cylon seek out cylon for friendship/comfort, sometimes without knowing (Boomer/Chief, Anders/Tori). Were this to be true then Lee would/could be the first Hylon….Were this to be true then the 12th model would be even more fundamentally different – since he was not impacted by the music or power drain.

    That is one theory, but I go back to one I (and some others) had earlier. Since we now have confirmed that the Cylon skin jobs have been around for a looooong time – my current favorite candidate for #12 – Zarek. It just seems so RDM-like to cast the hero of the original BSG as the ultimate cylon in this series.

    Let the speculation continue.

  158. Zice says:

    I’m surprised no reference was made in the podcast to the huge plug that Howard Stern gave this site when he mentioned it several times to his 6 million listener audience. Did you guys experience alot of extra hits about a week ago?

  159. The 13th Cylon says:

    I’m still hoping Ellen is a Cylon. She was one of my top 5 favorite characters.

  160. Josh says:

    Is the rewatch schedual up yet?

  161. Pike says:

    Zice, first I’ve heard of it. When did he mention it?

  162. Stephanie says:

    Totally unrelated: I followed the link from GWC to Tory/Rehka Sharma’s homepage for the first time. Go to the Main Page. I laughed.

  163. Armando says:

    So I’m FINALLY caught up on the podcasts (you guys are killing me with these two hour long ones!). I’ve been commenting here and there based on where I was in the ‘cast and the comments of others, but I am thrilled by the idea of a re-watch with podcast commentary (it’s like a reading group!). 🙂 I’ve been thinking that it might be time to watch BSG from the beginning again (been watching a lot of comedies on DVD lately and it’s time for something more serious…and I want to wait till Rome season 2 comes out on DVD to watch THAT again from the top), so I’m glad that I’ll be able to do it along with the GWC community. Woo-hoo!

  164. Mike says:

    I admit, I have not read through all 160+ comments, so I don’t know if this was raised or not… but could it be that Tyrol and Anders’ references to the song being “like something out of childhood” could (maybe even unbeknownst to them) refer to the “childhood” of humanity — which would argue for BSG being set far in the future? “Life here began out there” — i.e., the 12 colonies are the progeny of *our* Earth itself, that maybe Earth is not actually a 13th “colony” but Kobol itself? I know we’ve been to Kobol (which is the “motherworld” of BSG mythos, right?), and it didn’t seem like Earth — but maybe?

    Just wondering. Great podcast — so glad to have discovered this site!

  165. Luc says:

    Havent read through all the comments either. Seems the number of posts are growing exponentialy.

    Loved the podcast, loved the episode. BSG must be the only serialized TV show I ever wanted to rewatch in the same week.

    I’m old enough to remember seeing the original series as a kid. Even saw the pilot for the series which was shown in movie theaters, I think only in Canada. I was really disapointed, I am not at all nostalgic for the original series. When I heard they were remaking it, I thought it was the stupidest idea. Proven very wrong. I sure hope they dont pay homage to the original series and go all “ship of lights” on us. I’m not crazy about the idea of “head Starbuck”. Would miss her dearly as a Viper pilot and her interaction with ALL the crew.
    But still very happy and relieved to see her back.

    Here’s own I think the series will end. They discover Earth of the distant past, but have to face what is left of the Cylon fleet (they almost entirely self-destroyed). After the victorious massive battle, the remains of the fleet crash lands on a lavish, luxurious island in the middle of the Atlantic. Coincidently, the same day, Atlantis sinks at the bottom of the Ocean, killing everyone.

    These poor folks cant catch a break.

  166. Frakking Toaster says:

    Pardon me for being just a bit dense, but I’d like to submit an audio clip. Exactly how do I go about doing it.

    As for my thoughts on the finale…

    It looks pretty clear from Ronald D Moore’s interview on EW that these are 4 of the final 5 (Anders, Tyrol, Tigh, Tory).

    I am very torn on whether or not Starbuck is the 5th.

    * It looked pretty convincing that she blew up in “Maelstrom”, and certainly Apollo was convinced. How then, could she be back if not resurrected as a Cylon.
    * It would also add a lot of clarity to Leoben’s belief that he was guiding her toward a special destiny.
    * It seems to fit RDM’s rather chaotic pattern with Cylon revelations.

    * Nobody reacted to Starbuck’s presence besides Lee Adama, bolstering the “head Starbuck” theory. In fact Galactica didn’t spot her either, which even Edward James Olmos makes clear in his interview on EW. So right now, whether she turns out to be a fiction of his imagination or not, only Lee even thinks she’s back.
    * Starbuck as a “head” character in Lee’s mind won’t be as satisfying, as Head Six was with Baltar in Season 1. After all, nobody in the cast of characters even knew of Six besides Baltar, so there was no lost dynamic for Six to be someone only Baltar could see.

    I pretty firmly believe that Starbuck will ultimately be confirmed as the last Cylon.

  167. Pike says:

    Stephanie, I missed that link. What is it?

  168. Stephanie says:

    Pike: On this very page, on the green bar, there’s links to the actor’s official sites. Check out Rehka Sharma’s site, and then go to her “Main Page”. It seems Tory’s in a theatre group doing a play about humans and androids. The tagline says: “Imagine: You are an artificial being, imprisoned for being a little bit too human in ways human beings would rather forget. On your journey into the light, you learn to love the darkness. And how to stop being an automaton…” Talk about double lives!

    Luc: Where’ve you been, mon cher? I’ve been cracking jokes for you! And yes, Atlantis, I agree!

  169. FrancescaSF says:

    Well, now it makes sense that the Chief didn’t get as sick as Cally after exposure to vacuum. I couldn’t believe he was up and walking so soon. . . but if he’s a Cylon. . . maybe.

  170. Pike says:

    Stephanie, Ah! It’s not her page (which is why google failed me) it’s a production she was/is in.


    And yeah, is she typecast already?!

    Francesca, good point. I actually thought Cally’s problems were overblown at the time, but the distinction does make more sense now. Although… none of the Final 4/5ths have shown the same level of stamina as the Seven Skinjobs, so that may be one of the ways they’re ‘fundamentally different.’ (Although, although, Tigh did handle lack of sleep better than Adama in 33. Has Chief had a comparable moment? Aside from the airlock thing?)

  171. The 13th Cylon says:

    Okay, finally listened to the podcast. It gets the Cylon Seal of Approval.

    Hey guys, I thought I’d pass this little great info along based off a recent article at AICN. Nothing major, but it’s nice to see that RDM has said that whether or not the series ends after season 4 or 5, it will get the conclusion he wants and not end with a wild cliffhanger like so many other shows do (and a few that he’s worked on- Carnivale, Roswell, etc). And as a fan (Oh what might have been with Firefly!), that’s all I can ask for. He also mentioned that most of all the key players of BS Pegasus were expected to return (Cain, of course, Fisk, etc). Whoo! I’d be even better if SciFi would unbox that Caprica pilot.

    Audra- As far as this week’s 25 cent bet goes, I’d bet a lot against the fleet getting to Earth anytime before the final episode. I think what separates this show from others is that we have had an advertised ending from the start. The show is about the RTF getting to Earth. It’s all about the journey and not the destination and all that jazz, but what would be the point if the fleet made it to Earth with at least 10 episodes left? I’ve kind of always imagined that we’ll never see the fleet land on Earth or anything, just making it to Earth. I think that landing on Earth, especially a modern Earth, would really date the series (it reminds me of “V”).

    One other thing I’ve been smoking on lately is why the model numbers for the O7 and F5 aren’t sequential? These models are “fundamentally different”, yet their order seems to be random. Could these be rebel Cylons that evolved and rebelled against the other Cylons? Perhaps these versions gave the others a memory wipe, which would explain why it took Xena dying to find out who they were. So many wonderful questions, and I’m sure the writers will have something none of us expected. lol

  172. Bandwidth Bandito says:

    FFS everyone; it’s my first post and I have to go straight into rant mode, the six banners for the five cylons are just an aspect of interior decoration (set design if you will). Six banners create five gaps or “stations” in which a Cylon can stand. There is no sixth mystery Cylon unless… wait… yes it’s me! No really there is no mystery (apart from the mystery that is interior design). And don’t get me started on why there is no large ship in the Nebula. Face it, human being are seekers of patterns lookup (or google for all you young’uns) pareidolia and get over it. BTW I am a big fan of watercooler, keep up the good work.

    oh yeah and the “butterfingers” comment of Baltar almost made me pee, ahh so funny.

  173. Luc says:

    I’m still around Stephanie! I checked out the link and indeed, funny that she would be in a play about a half human half machine. Quite the coincidence. Cant say that I’m a big fan of the character, we havent seen much of her so far. Maybe she’ll grow on me eventually. Just 10 months to find out where they are going to go with all this…

    Oh yeah Bandit Bandito! Rewatching the episode I caught the “butterfingers” comment and it was hilarious. The writers have a neat quirky sense of humor, finding great comedy in very dark situations. Remember Tigh and Adama laughing hysterically at the “paper shortage”? Great TV moment.

  174. Joey Ratz says:

    Hey people, great comments!!

    One quick note I’d like to mention about Starbuck: we saw her viper three times before Lee saw her. Wouldn’t that prohibit her from being a “head” Starbuck? I mean, is she was a hallucination, she could not exsist outside of Lee’s field of view. I realize it’s a simplistic way of looking at the scene, but it makes sense.

    Besides, don’t you think RDM has gone to the “head” well one too many times? There’s head Six, head Baltar, head Leoben, head music, head Carolanne Adama (kinda), and a whole head opear house. A head Starbuck would be too much, and I hope RDM knows that.

  175. Martin K says:

    The fleet won’t get to Earth until near the end of the series, I think, b/c RDM said that Roslin, like Moses, won’t make it to the promised land. I don’t see RDM killing off Roslin until the very end.

  176. Mike D says:

    Wow what an episode. I have literally, watched it at least 20 times now, and each time I pickup something new.

    It was obvious to me and others that Kara was coming back, and also that Baltar would go free. To do otherwise would have not worked. The show needs Starbuck and Baltar.
    RDM said they had to convince her to go along with the plot. If she was really gone it would have not gone down that way.

    Kara’s return:

    I also did the frame by frame of the explosion when she died and there is no way she ejected. How she came back is anybody’s guess, I would say that the writers probably have several ideas and won’t make a final decision until after the inner break episodes where they setup the backstory.

    I am convinced that was really Starbuck, not just Head Starbuck. When Lee goes after the unknown contact, if you watch the scene closely there is turbulence, the dradis contact, and the conversation between them. Head conversations always go to what the individual could have known on there own. So with the I know where earth is, and I have been there. It seems very obvious that she is not in Lee’s head.

    Finding Earth:

    I believe there is a greater than 90 percent chance that season four will be it for Galactica. With that said I think that will be the mid season cliff hanger, they jump into earth orbit leave us hanging.


    Did anyone catch that Baltar called Felix “butterfingers” 

    Final Four:

    Watching the scene it looks like they all know a lot more than “OMG were cylons” I believe they have very detailed memories of the history of the final five, and I think that knowledge is going to be what gets them out of the jam they are currently in with the cylon fleet.

    This was not the usual season finally, and I can’t wait to hear RDM’s podcast just wish it was posted.

  177. Mike P says:

    I hope Mike D is right about the finding of Earth being the mid-season point of season 4. I think, even with the risk of dating the show, there needs to be some idea of how whoever is on Earth at the time (if anyone — assuming it is not distant past or far, far future) reacts to the fleet showing up. I am trusting that RDM and the other creators, actors, writers can make it much better than “Galactica 1980.” 🙂

  178. Mike D says:

    My gut says that earth will not be the thriving modern population that it is today, and their arrival will be tied into our past bringing the false gods / one true god full circle. And it will turn out that we are all hylons, the descendants of the cylons and the humans when they finally came to peace. No flying motorcycles, no viper cloaking devices.

    The last two episodes before the mid season 4 break:

    Part 1, the dying leader dies.
    Part 2, they visit earth and there is some other great mystery.

    I say this because I think they will leave us with OMG we are all cylons and you can’t set that up in one episode.

    And oh yes, Starbuck will give her life to save the life of the child that represents the future of the hylon race.

  179. Requiem says:

    Martin K, you just convinced me that the RTF isn’t going to find earth anytime soon. BSG just wouldn’t be good for very long with out Roslin!

  180. BoxytheBoxed says:

    i think Adama will die before the promise land i will go out there and say i was #1 in saying that the bible promise land thing, but i like the Rosilin thing, but i dont think Rosilin will die. I think lee and Adama will have to resolve, and right before Adama dies he will pass on the leadership of the fleet to him

  181. Ray says:

    I’m liking this area of speculation: If season 4 is the last (which I strongly believe, and am a supporter of, although I LOVE the show, I just want it to have a dramatically satisfying ending rather than drag it out for as long as possible before it finally jumps shark and dies), then we’ll have 20 episodes next year (because 2 of the re-order are apparently used up by the Pegasus Movie), so what will the big mid-season cliffhanger be?

    Hoping the final, final minutes of the show will wrap everything up and answer the questions we have without raising any extra ones, i.e. not ending on another cliffhanger, but a proper ending. I think if the last moment is the Fleet reaching Earth orbit, that would be a cop-out, so we need to find out eventually when this is all taking place relative to us. So I think the best mid-season cliffhanger they could have (bearing in mind they’ve got to sustain another 10 episodes past this point) would be the death of Roslin, as they reach Earth orbit, leaving us with the promise of landing on Earth after the hiatus and finding out what is really going on.

    And here’s another thing to stew on. With Galactica’s current state, i.e. still needing massive repairs, and the cylons having 5 basestars in pursuit, there’s no way our favourite battlestar would survive very long in a fight. So how are the cylons going to be overcome? Either they go the Matrix route and end with a truce between the two sides because there’s no chance of victory, or the Hylon generation unites them, or… what? I don’t see what else they could do as they’re apparently so close to arriving at Earth, they’re not going to give the cylons the slip this late in the game. Unless they miraculously bring back the cylon disease of Torn/Salvation, but I don’t see that happening.

    I’m just so excited because this is BY FAR the best show I’ve EVER seen on TV. I can’t wait to see it come to a complete and satisfying end, at which point I will probably watch the whole series on a loop, one episode per day for as long as is humanly possible. Did I mention I like this show?

  182. Audra says:

    Zice: We were pretty delighted to learn (from a GWC fan who emailed us) that Stern mentioned the site. My observation is probably the same as others’ – the number of comments seems to be steadily rising.

    13th: Good point – although I still think that with good writing they could pull off Earth as a new setting. They did it on New Caprica for a while!

    Banwidth Bandito: I completely agree! I always thought the five “place-holders” at the bottom of the lights were what we’re supposed to be looking at.

  183. Pike says:

    Ray, from what I’ve heard, the Pegasus Project* is separate from Season Four, budget-wise. Have you heard differently?

    *I have to start a band with that name now

  184. 13th Cylon says:

    Pike, from everything that I’ve heard, it’s going to be technically 2 of the 22 episodes. I would imagine it is considered part of Season 4 and thus in the same budget and all. It’s supposed to be like two episodes from the regular season yanked out to give us a little to drool over for a few months/weeks and for them to sell some DVDs- as this was Universal Home Video’s idea. But now that I mention that, I’m assuming that it wouldn’t be included in a Season 4 DVD set. RDM says they’re “bonus episodes” and I hope they don’t waste my time like the “bonus scenes”. Season 4 is the “bonus season”! lol Maybe the bonus scene went the way of the dodo with the last two episodes being bonus free.

  185. Mike says:

    Mike D: I suppose you are on to something. Finding out that we are all hylons would be a logically satisfying conclusion. Given that we already have an “Adam” in “Adama,” though — whether Bill or Lee, who knows? — it also sounds disappointingly similar to the old sci-fi trope of “This is the story of how the human race came to be.” Like that old Twilight Zone episode where “Adam” and “Eve” are the survivors of a rocket crash.

    So while you make a convincing case (or at least propound a compelling theory) that the ending is, we will all be hylons — wouldn’t that kind of bum you out, deep down? It’s one of the oldest sci-fi cliches in the book, and this series just deserves to be so much more than remembered as “a four-year set up for the old Adam-and-Eve story.”

    Also: Elosha states in the miniseries (which I’ve watched twice now in preparation for the great Re-Watch! ) that Earth is supposedly where a thirteenth tribe of humans fled from Kobol. Isn’t the implication that we are the 13th tribe? (Maybe I am reading too much of old BSG into new BSG on this point.) That the decimated 12 tribes are going to join up with us, their brothers and sisters from long ago, to survive? I guess that doesn’t undermine the “we are all hylons” too much, though…

    Anyway, thanks for sparking some interesting thoughts.

    (BTW, there’s no “forum” around here, is there? I love the podcast, love the comments, but a message board might be a more efficient way to communicate with each other — or at least have the option of sending messages by clicking on user names in the comments… that way the e-mail addresses could still be private? Just wondering. Thanks for a really awesome site!)

  186. Pike says:

    13, well, probably for the best then. That’ll take two eps. out of rotation for the “crappy filler of the middle of the season” award…

  187. Mike D says:

    Mike: Good point about the oldest sci-fi gimmick, where did we come from. When you consider earth history and the multiple gods and the similarities to the show. Then consider that the cylons have “one true god”, same as most earth religions, it seems they have been setting this up from the start. So I can see RDM pulling this off in a clever way that is exciting, satisfying and compelling.

    When they get to earth:

    There are so many ways they could play this out, and the biggest questions is where did Starbuck get that viper?

    1) Captured by the cylons.
    2) From the 13th Tribe

    I don’t think RDM is going to do “save earth from the cylons” they have already been making the cylon interactions less battle oriented and more interpersonal.

    Another big question is Baltar, I see him as one of the hero’s in the final plot where the cylons and humans ultimately become a race. This has also been setup for quite some time and I think Baltar and Six will instrumental in this.

    There is something in store for him, something big. He keeps doing things that never quite come full circle. Perhaps he allies with Baltar, and his disgust for Baltar has been that Baltar reminds him of himself and his selfishness.

    Starbuck is alive because she will die again. She will sacrifice her life to save the child who represents the future of human cylon civilization. This is what her mother was preparing her for.

    I also love the speculation, it’s what makes the show so great, an ever unfolding mystery done so well. It just keeps you thinking.

  188. The Lonely Toaster says:

    Though I’m a regular podcast listener, I am neither a typist nor a lurker, so this is is the first time I’ve been to the site.
    I’ve only skimmed the forum to see if this has been covered, so if it has, please forgive me.

    Anyway, in the finale when Lee is flying through the orange nebula looking for his bogey, right before Kara shows up, there seems to be a break in the clouds. In the dark purply blackness that at first I thought was space, there seems to be revealed some kind of huge spacecrafty machinery. I’m talking deathstar sized geometry filling the whole area beyond the clouds. It appears to be part of a giant cylinder or disc, with some thin ribbing along some edges picking up highlights.

    Did I miss something?
    Should I know what this is?

    -The Lonely Toaster

  189. Mike P says:

    Mike D writes: >

    Me, too — I just hope the show will still hold up once all is revealed at the end. I’d hate for it to be just a puzzle show where all the fun was had in the journey, and none at the destination.

  190. Mike D says:

    That’s an interesting observation, even though I’ve probably watched it many times I never noticed it. As for it being a ship or something along those lines, there are a couple of stars in front it. If you are right maybe they are lights.

    I definitely see the bottom of a large sphere shaped object, good catch. Maybe that’s what knocked out the power.

  191. The Lonely Toaster says:

    Mike D:
    That mystery ship is shown in two quick shots. I just single framed through them again. At the very top of the frame (when the camera jerks up) there seemed to be a slightly greenish tinted part with smooth curves hidden in the shadows. Maybe a docked base star? And upon playing it again in real time, this time focusing my attention on that top part of the screen, I definately saw what looked like an electrical pulse flowing over it. It even repeats in the second tiny shot. I’d say you’re dead on about it causing the power outage.
    Lee even seems to be looking at this “ship” before he is distracted by Starbuck.
    …And you have to assume Kara is somehow connected to this thing. She’d obviously be able to see it too, and she’s cool as a frozen cuke. (assuming she’s not just a vision, of course)


  192. Dan, the Lord of Kobol says:

    Another *great* cast from you the GWC crew.

    If I have time, I’ll phone in a little blurb about my theory on Baltar for the listener ‘cast. Audra kind of touched on it, but I want to take it to the next step.

    Something Lawyer Bill said made me think, though. I really appreciate the effort Sean, Chuck, and Audra put into GWC. You guys add a little sprinkle of excitement to my life, and I’m very thankful for it.

    Anywho! Loved the cast and I thought it was a ridiculously great bang to end the season with. Kudos.

  193. Jaz says:

    Hey everyone,

    Has anyone thought about the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse and the 5 horsemen, which was supposedly their leader, Christ? I didn’t read every post, so I may have missed this theory…but I wanted to throw this out there. The last line of the Dylan song made me think of this: “Two riders were approaching…” Maybe the cylons are part of our earth’s Judeo-Christian mythology/religion? If Christ was a cylon and he was married to Mary Magdalane, does that mean their entire bloodline are cylons?…oh wait, wrong area of pop culture…

    …or is it?

  194. Pike says:

    ZOMG! It’s the Death Star!!

    No, seriously, I don’t see it. Is that the shot from inside Lee’s cockpit right after he picks up the contact on his dradis? You might be seeing reflections from his instruments on the canopy.

    Or, I could just be missing it. Can someone do a screencap?

  195. Athenor says:

    Hey! I actually finished listening to #35!

    Cool, they mentioned my “Battlestar Galactica Break Support Group” idea! BSGBSG/BSG^2… whee. =)

  196. Bandwidth Bandito says:

    Spoiler for Season 4

    Apollo: I’m going to chase those Cylons there heading for that small moon!
    Starbuck: Wait that’s no moon it’s… a space station.
    Tigh: (over comms) Stop going on about that Crrraaaapp! It’s nothing but pareidolia!

    P.S. (I will be happy to be proven wrong on this one, but come on; this frame by frame analysis stuff gives us nerds a bad name; especially when Apollo would have theoretically been looking right at the bloody thing at the time and said nothing.)

  197. Mike D says:

    Regarding the Death Star, Looney pointed out…

    The nebula most likely did not cause the power outage. There was a probe left by the 13th tribe as a marker to earth in the lions head nebula. So here are some interesting points:

    1) As they approached the nebula the ( music / switch ) seemed to get stronger, so possibly this is another beacon, only more powerful that caused the music and the power outage.
    2) After Lee pursues the unknown contact, the dradis starts malfunctioning, possibly interference from the large object.
    3) If you watch this scene closely, Starbuck does the pass from behind, based on that vantage point It appears that she is definitely real which makes good since for the show.
    4) The more I watch this scene the more convinced I am that something is there. Especially the way the scene is cut, it’s too subtle and clever.
    5) Kara could be leading / drawing Lee toward the object, so I think Kara saying “Lee I want to show you something” in season 4 is entirely possible.
    6) Kara also said she had been to Earth, perhaps the object could contain some type of portal.

    At first I was skeptical about the object, but the more I watch that scene, the way it’s cut, and think about the power outage and the final four having their memories activated, I become more convinced that something is there. I don’t know if Looney was the first to point this out but good job spotting it.

  198. Audra says:

    Jaz, Holy craaaap – that’s a great theory, and completely original, as far as I know, here on GWC. I’ll have to think more on it, but post more if you can on that one!


  199. Lt. Slingshot says:

    Does anyone have a link to the recent RDM interview where he talks about the reveal of the four being cylons? I’ve heard it talked about but can’t seem to find it. Thanks in advance.

  200. ikkarus says:

    Maybe it’s just my own personal, stubborn love for and faith in Boomer, but did anyone else read Tyrol’s thoughts in his silence during the F4 revelation as “What about Boomer?” I just kept hearing him think “OMG This is how Boomer felt …” as Tigh said “What about Ellen?”
    I hope Boomer/Chief business is revisited in season 4 in some way. I thought, ‘I know Chief told Apollo he didn’t think about Boomer anymore while drinking at Joe’s … but HE’S THINKING ABOUT BOOMER NOW!’ Although we didn’t get much Boomer in S3, I didn’t buy the whole Boomer not caring about Galactica or Chief anymore for a second, despite what lead to Caprica breaking her neck and all. I know we’ll probably never get two Eights in the fleet, but I’m hoping we haven’t seen the end of Boomer’s story.

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