March 19, 2007
GWC Podcast #34
With “Crossroads, Part 1” we’re firmly on the rollercoaster to next week’s season finale. Highlights: We ponder Lee’s “sacrifices,” question the quality of the prosecution’s case and performance, discuss Roslin’s future (personal and political), and, of course, speculate about next week’s big happenings. Also, we welcome back GWC senior legal analyst Bill Watkinson, who walks us through this episode’s trial scenes.
Galactic Watercooler 
Modern Geek 
Save Eureka 
Eff This Week 
FitSmart
I think that Anders is now a nugget….I thought I heard that term used when he first came on the screen.
The ship that Adama broke before can be seen in the episode right after Apollo resigns and walks out of Adm. Adama quarters it is at about 42mins and 48 seconds. It is right under the two LCD screens that are on the wall.
Yes, Anders is a nugget because Hot Dog referred to him as one.
Wow, they really are desperate!
Helo is apparantly the super sub. One day he’s saving nasty hippies from Bruce Davison and the next day he’s running things in the CIC.
did anyone else see next weeks trailer that included the cylon reveal
Haven’t listened to the podcast yet, but a few observations from last night. First of all, the “reveal” of the preview. Oh how they love to screw with you during the preview that turns out to be something completely different. I’m wondering if those that can hear the music is somehow linked with Starbuck’s death. As for that line of “It’s true, we’re all cylons” I’ll bet that’s just a throwaway line with those that can hear the music in their heads discussing what it could mean. What I do find interesting is that Rosalin in her dream sees the figures of the final 5.
Rosalin has cancer, it’s not going to get cured this time. It means they are very close to finding earth. It fulfills scripture which in this universe has proven to be quite real. Those of you who want her out of office just wait. Seems that Zarak (Mr. Vice President) will be president soon enough.
Lee resigning for the “Principle of the system” ?? WTF?? This one makes no sense to me. Lee’s moral compas seems to be spinning in circles. Seems to me llike another manufactured conflict for the sake of drama. I’m definately with Dee on this one. Tbe system that elects Baltar and then tries to get him off is one that needs to be torn appart and rebuilt. Go Dee!!!
TORY IS STARBUCK!
I posted this on the frag party after the episode, but no one commented on my idea. I’ll be stubborn and try one more time here (sorry if I’m annoying!).
When Anders looked at Tory in the bar, it wasn’t because he was attracted or recognized her like I thought at the time. It was how she ordered her drink-the way Starbuck would have.
When Roslin told her to comb her hair once and a while, Starbuck.
When Tory made the comment refering to the media as vultures and flying off the handle, that was totally Starbuck.
After the teaser for next week (It’s true we’re all Cylons), this idea just popped into my head. Tory is Starbuck in some shape or form. If she’s not being influenced by the Starbuck we knew, she is a ‘model’ with the same personality as the Starbuck ‘model’.
As for the music, maybe those few who can hear it are the only 100% human charactors and the cylons/hylons can’t consciously hear the music???
Watchya think? Am I crazy?
For reference, there are many types of stem cells. A stem cell is a cell that has not differentiated into its final form. You see, cells when they start out as a zygote the cells have no specific task to do (and are undifferentiated); as the zygote progresses, cells are forced (by various signals-both positional and hormonal) to become good for specific roles (liver cells, kidney cells, neurons, etc.) and thus they differentiate for those roles. Stem cells are cells that have not yet differentiated. As such, fetuses are the most profitable source of stem cells because fetuses have not wholly developped; while stem cells do exist in adults, they are far more rare. Also, adult stem cells (which tend to exist in bone marrow) have been found to be “semi-differentiated.” In that, despite being stem cells they seem to have a sort of memory of their original location and are not as useful for research (compared to natal or fetal stem cells).
caleb
Whoa! St.Cavil!!! That would totally send the show in a new direction…interesting theories. Now my mind is racing… Can’t wait until next week!!
I need to see the preview of next week. I don’t feel comfortable commenting just yet.
That said, I’ve always believed (and you can check my legit posts) that the final 5 are corporeal beings in the sense that they have minds, but not bodies. I am of the belief that one of them has infected the Galactica itself. Being Starbuck would be interesting.. and plausable… but I’m not ready to make the leap that the Galactica cylon is Starbuck.
That said, the radio Tigh was tuning was Kara’s.
Re: How Head Baltar knew about Ellen – he didn’t.
HB could tell Tigh had “lost something” just from looking at him, and guessed that it was someone close to him. Six played on the “loss” angle, assuming it was a woman Tigh had lost. She never gets specific, doesn/t even say the person Tigh lost is dead, just “lost”. Of course Tigh, like you guys, assumed she knew something, which totally mind fraked him
… May the gods have mercy on my soul, I read the spoilers. I don’t regret it, and I won’t talk about them. I still think my theories fit.
Frakin Nice St. Cavil!!… Your points bring my thinking to an interesting place.
You’re right, Tory is acting a bit like SB. I felt she was very out of place in the pilot bar/hangout. The muisc seemed to be the common factor there but we have never confirmed that she has ever actually heard it, we are simply assuming thats why she is acting funny.
Nice observation, I would have missed it. Hell, I did miss it.
I’m sorry I didn’t participate in last night’s online frak party. I saw some spoilers for the upcoming episode (including the Cylon reveal). So, I didn’t want to inadvertently say something that could give everything away.
I will say that this episode was EXCELLENT. Michael Hogan deserves an Emmy for his performance. It’s funny, but he emotes more with that one eye than most people can do with their whole body. Or as McClosky (Lloyd Bridges) said in Airplane II, “He’s got more guts in his little finger than most people do in their whole body… including the colon!” Hogan’s a damn fine actor.
Oh, and I hated how this episode ended. It ended perfectly.
Is it me or is it obvious that Adama acted the way he did toward Lee because he’s crushing on Laura and that’s affecting his judgment? Perhaps it’s time for the Adamas to join the “He Man Woman Haters Club” or something.
I’m feeling your pain, Athenor, if you read the same thing I did.
Oh, I’m not feeling pain. Companies have been known to lie about things such as this.
And the spoilers do fit with things Moore’s said in the podcasts.
But I think the big moment during the screener was a misdirect (DUH, Simpsons was doing misdirects 10 years ago), and outside of that things fit. Really fit.
BTW, guys, if you are theorizing about the music… Keep in mind your space physics. And your knowledge of steller geography.
I think that they will find Earth, but they won’t know it’s Earth until they find the Statue of Liberty! :O
… Stellar. Cartography.
‘Tis all I’m saying.
Great episode. Have not heard the podcast yet but wanted to comment on some character’s development.
I am always amazed how well and deftly RDM et al handle development of the personalities of the characters. They are so multi-dimensional. In this one episode they have managed (at least for me)
To re-cast avuncular Admiral Adama (who had been relatively in touch with his emotions) to be still very straight-jacketed my the military way of viewing the world and frankly he represents the greatest threat to civil liberties. “We will let you have them, as long as they do interfere with the way we think they ought to be.” His respect for rule of law is just pretty much a pretence. That earlier coup against the council was no flash in the pan. Rather this is a man who is not comfortable in the messy state that is democracy, nor is he comfortable in an open emotional relationship with another indivdual. Further, he shows a tremendous lack of insight in regards to the growth and maturity of his son. Is it any wonder Lee has been so Fraked up? With his Mom the way she was portrayed, and a dad who clearly cannot allow his son to step out from his shadow and become his own person.
Which leads to Lee. I find I actually feel for him and admire his struggle. I disagree with the above comment about his moral compass being all over the place. He is trying to individuate and become his own man. Even a noble man. Lee is coming to understand that platitudes about the rule of law, etc are merely words. Ultimately they require action. He has shown flashes of this (pulling the gun on Tigh) but they often have been more reactive, in the moment. This episode shows him being forced to choose, to consider his choices and more importantly his motivations, as Lampkin forces him to do. It is no longer about sticking it to the old man, it’s about standing up for want you believe. Lee’s individuation becomes fully accomplished when he resigns his commission, releases the form that ostensibly gave him identity to allow him to become who he is, not a image foisted upon him by parents who he is eternally seeking approval and acceptance.
Dee. Well, they have imho, taken her from a sympathetic character of this season and tossed her out the airlock. She has shown herself to be incapable of being a wife, lover, confidant, and has shown where her loyalties truly lie. She makes no attempt to support her husbands struggle, to understand or even try to understand. It’s “I’m leaving” Well good riddance. I have no truck with that kind of attitude. She demonstrates a shallowness of character and loyalty that is not admirable or the least sympathetic ..
As to the trial, again kudos for it’s staging and dramatization. As a lawyer, I find most TV cout programs too painful to watch. Just stupid. But here, I think they conveyed the major thrusts and arguments well, and in a way that heightened the drama and tensions without being too simplistic. Sure, things like Lee saying, “Coach, put me in” was a bit off center, but it did add to the tension. Also, I thought that the editing was spot on, with intercutting to other things rather than just the court scenes. Anyway, first impression was enjoyable.
All told, it’s why this makes BSG so frakking fun!
Just a note on the radio signals. Metal structures (such as ships, and I assume battlestars) can act as huge intermittant radio recievers, as can smaller systems such as fillings in peoples mouths resonating at certain frequencies.
(see http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=367925).
The question now remains; what is the signal? Often a number of signals get mixed up together in the above cases. Could it be a combined signal from Earth shortwave and perhaps a cylon device on board Galactica?
Why do only Tigh & Anders hear it? Were some detainee’s on New Caprica implanted with radio trackers of some sort, or do they just have the largest number of fillings in their teeth? Or is it just Starbuck fracking with them from beyond the grave (she would have had a good laugh messing with Tigh in the courtroom like that)?
I don’t know about that signal. That whole thing bugs because it didn’t serve any purpose (that we are aware of, yet) in that whole episode but to make us think that Tigh is off his rocker, and that he and Anders know something that we don’t. And with two reveals remaining, who finds Earth and who is a Cylon, this episode was a let down. I found nothing of real interest other than Lee’s resignation and the new conflict between father and son. Okay, so Roslin’s cancer came back. Do we really have to go through that again, or are we going to learn something different this time around? It seems that we have already played that one out.
I will say this though, I think Anders know who the Cylon is, or has some sort of suspicion that Tory is the Cylon. She was having kind of a Boomer-moment that episode.
And as far as Tory being Starbuck. I would hate to see that happen because I hate Tory and if that actress has to assume Starbuck’s personality, it simply wouldn’t work.
So much to say….
Let me throw this in: Mythbusters went after the whole “fillings picking up radio signals.” Suffice to say “BUSTED”.
As for the radio here’s my theory:
The Cylons are tracking the fleet becuase they put tracking devices in Tigh, in Anders and in Tori. They are the devices, not the fuel ship. So the next great delima is what to do with them? If you can’t “cure them” or remove the devices, do you airlock some of your closest friends to ensure the safety of the fleet at large.
Of course Tigh’ll just jump out an airlock himself…. but Anders and Tori might not… well that’s my theory at least.
My predictions, for what they are worth…
One will die – Roslin ( to complete the prophecy)
One will find Earth – Starbuck ( special purpose/destiny, doubted the death thing from the time it “happened”… bet it was the raider that blew up…)
One will find out they are Cylon – Tighe/Tory/Anders?
And Helo’s next job…Head Helo.
Stellar. Cartography????
Are you guys saying they find where Earth used to be?
Was the music they were hearing the piano music that Starbucks father played by chance?
I know it sounded more like a harp, but was it the same song she played for Helo on Caprica? I can’t remember how the song went.
Max Peck…
“Head Helo”… GREAT IDEA!
“Paid for by BSG fans to elect someone other than Laura Roslin…who has never been elected as it is.â€
LOL. Head Helo… Loving it.
I also disagree that Lee has lost his moral compass. I think he’s the only one who really has one. Lampkin forced him to face his principles and stand for them. The system isn’t broken, contrary to what Dee said. If a person is accused of a crime, then the person must face his accusers and a jury of his peers. Regardless of the crime. Even if a murderer is caught with the smoking gun in his hand, he still must go to trial. That’s the law.
Okay, considering that what Baltar did was wrong and he should be summarily executed, then don’t shut down the airlock yet. Adama should go out the airlock for: (1) a coup d’etat when he refused to go with Roslin to Kobol, (2) disobeying a direct order from Admiral Cain and even launching Vipers at the Pegasus, (3) abandoning the colonies on New Caprica. Roslin should then be tossed out for: (1) attempting to hijack a ship to go to Kobol, (2) forcing the fleet to go to a planet with a known Cylon presence, i.e. reckless endangerment of the entire human race, (3) attempting to steal an election. But to try and go after Baltar because he’s slimy and narcissistic and automatically pronounce him guilty is nowhere near fair. And if we lose fairness or the appearance of it, then we’re no longer “worthy of survival”. Essentially, what Dee was advocating was the same thing that Admiral Cain tried to do to Helo and Chief.
Yes, Baltar is a slime, but he did win that election fair and square. He did cater to the will of the people, who wanted to colonize New Caprica. Also, he did not have a choice but to surrender when the Cylons came because his military DID leave him (of their own volition). Finally, he did have a gun to his head when he was forced to sign the death warrant for the insurgents. As the prosecutor said, they couldn’t pin the original destruction of the colonies on him because there was no proof. And even then, if they could, even though he was responsible, was he really culpable? I think Baltar’s character is an interesting one because it forces us to really see what we think about justice.
In my mind, Baltar may be guilty of conspiracy after the fact and obstruction for the destruction of the colonies. He is guilty of murdering a colonial officer (although I think that’s a weak charge) when he killed Crashdown. He is guilty of handing over the nuke that destroyed Cloud Nine. He is guilty of aiding the Cylons in finding Earth (treason, I suppose). But other than that, I can’t really find anything else he’s guilty of.
On the flip side… and I may catch flak for this, Baltar has been instrumental in keeping the humans alive. It was Caprica Six’s involvement with Baltar that caused a serious course change in the Cylon thinking in “Downloaded”. Suppose Caprica Six was never impacted by Baltar as she was. There would have been no New Caprica occupation, the Cylons would have nuked them from orbit. Caprica Six was regarded as a war hero and therefore had a lot of sway with the Cylon decision making process. Also, because of Baltar, the Cylons began to show confusion in their decision making after New Caprica. Because of Baltar, the Cylons started to argue. Because of Baltar’s support, D’Anna disobeyed or broke away from the Cylon consensus and thus was boxed, which was a good thing because she was more ruthless than Cavil.
Baltar is like the poison pill or the virus that destroyed the aliens in War of the Worlds.
Dainin,
Right on about Lee! I was glad to see him actually make the choice to stand up for his principles. The need to step from out of his father’s shadow and to nobly stand for what he believes is right, even to the point of defending a “low-life, pond scum of a client” (although why hasn’t Baltar pointed out that he signed the execution order under duress?), actually makes the whining pansy that he was earlier this season somewhat justifiable. I’m glad to have him back!
St. Cavil youve totaly got Tory is a cylon…i think maby not the starbuck line.
[spoilers removed: please be patient — not everyone wants to know these, and we need to be respectful of that]
im only 1/2 the way done the cast, but you havent said anything bout Lee and Dee breaking up. i think its gonna be really important later in S4.
I think the swing vote will be Adama because he hates baltar, but there is too little evidence.
If Geta takes the stand i think hes gonna lie, and hes gonna be good at it. he hates baltar more than any one else. i really want them to deepen his character. i have to say Tigh on the stand really touched me, he really is a fantastic actor “yeah i had a drink”
Great podcast, an hour and a half is fine, don’t worry!!!!
Athenor, I read spoilers too, what have I done?
The only good thing is I don’t believe them!!!!!
I ordered the radio…….thanks 13!!!!!
My best to Bill from one pond sucking bottom dweller to another. He is imho spot on about the reason for the visit to Adama by Lee. This is borne out by a short snippet where Lee looked across CIC and saw Laura and Adama talking behind the plotting board. He then smelled her thermos. From the smell, I suspect he realized she was talking the Karbala extract again, but did not know why. For visions, or as a medical treatment if the cancer had returned. The speculation to see if he could find out if it was for a medical problem and if so, then he would not have cross examined her on taking the Karbala. But he went after her on the stand because he did not know.
Boxy. I can’t see Adama being the swing vote. He’s a hanging judge all the way.
.. I would highly doubt that. If anything, the previews are part of the obfuscation, especially considering that the Canadian broadcast didn’t get the same preview we did. Sci-fi is many things, but they aren’t stupid — they aren’t going to spell out in the preview exactly who is a cylon and who is not.
I think there is a TON of misdirection going on. Don’t believe anyone.
Come one guys, you guys who read the spoilers are giving away a lot more than you realize. Please be considerate for those of us who haven’t!
Joe: Agreed. Everyone, please be careful. This is a difficult time for everyone wanting to go virginal into the finale.
Boxey/Spoiler Readers: Play nice. Don’t post the spoilers here. If people want ’em, they can get ’em from Sci-Fi or from the spoiler sites.
Everyone: I’m convinced Athenor’s dead on in suggesting that there’s a lot of misdirection here. As we said in this week’s ‘cast: has Sci-Fi ever slipped the main event from a BSG finale into the preview?
I remember last seasons cliffhanger. It upset me too Chuck, as you stated in the podcast. I have a feeling they are going to punch us in the face, then we are going to have to wait for 10 months. That is over twice as long as the previous waits. I am talking to my family about putting me in a medically induced coma!!!Hopefully the doctors can wake me in January!!!!!
Great podcast guys, I listened during work today and I think the quality of my work and possibly my credibility as a financial analyst may have been compromised because I spent the whole day LMAO at all your great comments. (I totally lost it when you all started commenting on Lee’s Pimp Suit)
Thanks for reining in the spoilery, I appreciate it, in fact, I’m not even going to listen to RDM’s podcast for this episode until after next week just in case he slips (which he’s been known to do).
Anyone else think there’s a significance to Tigh’s “discovery” that he thinks the music is coming from the ship itself? Anders heard the music in the bar when Tigh was tuning the radio, it didn’t seem like anyone else heard it (Maybe Tory?), but the fact that he heard it during the trial and later on in his quarters, maybe there is something about Galactica itself?
Also the comment earlier from Kieltok who mentioned that Tory was having a “Boomer Moment” I thought that was dead on, I thought that same thing myself. Boomer went through the same kinds of behaviors before she found out she was as sleeper agent. Interesting…
I know where you’re coming from, Frank. I feel the same way. How to survive the next 10 months is going to kill me. I figure if The 4400 comes out (and they didn’t cancel it), that’ll help a little. Also, I can go through the three seasons of BSG. But, damn, 10 MONTHS?!?!?!? Even bears don’t hibernate that long.
This wait is gonna suck.
I’ve got to call shennanagins on Lee’s part. That Lee is standing up for “The principal of the system” is 100% B.S. That is simply the justification he is using to himself. His only real purpose here is to be a stick in the eye of his father. Sure, in season 1 Lee put a gun to Tigh’s head. The difference there is he actually was defending the system he believed him. It was very much a fight between military rule and constitutional government. The difference here is that “the system” that Lee is such a big proponent of is not being threatened. Quite the contrary we are in this position precicely because the system is being adhered to. In spite of all you Roslin haters out there when it came down to it she acknowledged the need for a fair trial and guess what.. Baltar IS getting a fair trial. How many times did Adama and Roslin have the discussion to themselves, with each other, and with their advisors “Hey, it’s not too late to blow Baltar out the airlock” or “It’s not too late for Baltar to dissappear” However, the powers that be, who would like nothing more than to summarily execute Baltar recognize his right to a fair trial and have given it to him. They could have made this a kangaroo court just for show, but it is not. If the president had given the order to blow Baltar out the airlock and Lee drew a gun, refusing to carry out that order then Lee would be standing on principal. If Lee believed Baltar was innocent, which he does not, then Lee would be standing on principal by defending him. The only thing that Lee being on the defense team accomplishes is allowing him to distance himself from his father in a very big way. Let’s say Lee didn’t do any of this, let’s say that he went back to being CAG and washed his hands of the whole ordeal. If that happened Baltar would still be getting a fair trail. If anything I think that Lee has hurt Baltar’s case. While yes, Laura being on drugs is relevant to the credibility of her testimony, by revealing that she is back on Kamala because of a relapse in cancer doesn’t discredit Laura. Quite the contrary. It elevates her back to the position of religous figure. She has now reassumed the roll of “the leader” as told in the book of Pythia. She stands against Baltar. There is a possibility that next week will have a 3-2 decision convicting Baltar on the basis of people trusting her for her religous status.
Which brings up another point. Laura is “the leader” as foretold in the scrolls. This means that more blood won’t save her. She will not live to see earth. If she is about to die, that means they are getting close to finding it.
Rorlin, I like your tracking device theory, but as far as we know, Tori hasn’t been imprisioned by the Cylons, has she? On New Caprica, maybe? I dunno, I think that Starbuck, Tori, Tigh, Anders, and the Chief are Hylons. I include the Chief since he’s the other one having non-chemically induced visions, plus he’s got a baby (are Hylon babies detectable by Baltar’s test? Are they even still using Baltar’s test? I think you guys covered that in one of the ‘casts, no?). I dunno if my boy Tigh could take it, though. He looks about THIS CLOSE to snappin’. Micheal Hogan for the frakkin’ win, baby.
These Hylon sleepers may have been conceived by covert Cylons and unsuspecting (except for Starbuck’s mom, aparently) humans, back in ye olde days of Joseph Adama, thereby affording them an apparently airtight alib against Cylonhood, so to speak. The implications in terms of inter-species breeding, which has always been one of the themes of the show, are very interesting.
Maybe the activation of the full Cylon sleepers at the end of Season 1 was phase 1 of ‘The Plan’; activation of the Hylon sleepers is phase 2, and the Cylons are using this signal to both activate and track. . .
ToasterChick, I thought the same thing about Tigh and the source of the music/signal. I just finished watching, so I don’t know what to make of it yet. . . That would be kinda cool, if it were something related to Galactica in particular (maybe not a sentient ship-type thing -that might be kinda cheesy- but a mystical ‘Noah’s Ark’ scripture-related connotation?)
Man, I’m frakkin’ excited for next week! Thanks to all for restraint with the spoilers, BTW.
X_O
“. . . It’s in the ship. . . “
By the way.. Has anyone stopped to consider, just possibly, that the Cylons are finding their way to Earth on their own? I mean, we know that 250+ jumps = 10-12 for them, maybe less. They could’ve been to Earth, have come back, and are only tailing the Galactica crew to rile them or get back Caprica.
There is no explanation as to how the cylons could be 6-12 light hours away from the fleet, and just jumping after them. It just doesn’t make sense. Caprica seemed uncertain in her explanation of how they were tracking them.
Something’s just bothering me with all of that. Especially given how fast the cylons locked on after seeing them in the rocks.
… As far as we know, D’anna is the only model (outside Caprica) who really believed and pursued the Final Five. she was boxed for it…. And the next Cylon sighting after this was Leoben. Yes, guys, think about that: We haven’t seen a cylon outside of Caprica and Athena since the Eye of Jupiter.
By all rights, the Cylons could’ve won this race long ago. So why are they driving the Galactica in front of them?
What if (as discussed in the ‘cast) there’s an assasination attempt on Baltar and he’s dying but not killed outright? Would that make him the dying leader?
Also, I thought Helo’s big “storm coming” moment was less leadership and more confusion, closer to Ander’s style of radio weirdness. That would make 4 people affected by whatever it is, and Starbuck makes 5.
i think the radio is either transmtting the signature for the cylons to follow or yes its a clue or beacon to earth left by the 13th…so audra when are we getting a new song?????????????
Zareks with me on one of those ships
It seems clear to me that the radio signals are coming from Earth. They may be *very old* signals from a long time ago, as radio waves move outward from their origin at the speed of light. Once you get inside a radio wave bubble like that, though, you can track its origin, at least within a range of possibilities. The Galactica may be acting as a weird radio receiver in that capacity, but I’m unsure as to why only Tigh and Anders heard it.
For as powerful as they are, I don’t think the Cylons have found Earth. We give them a lot of credit for being all-powerful but that’s obviously not the case.
Nick, I couldn’t agree more about Lee. Your reasoning is spot-on. There’s just no good reason for him to be doing this, other than to work through his grief for Starbuck and his long-simmering daddy-issues by antagoning the Old Man, and Lampkin is playing him like a frakkin’ fiddle. He’s lost his wife, his military career, and his father, not to mention his self respect in the eyes of the people around him. There is no way this is not going to come back and bite him in the ass, and when it does, his little lawyer friend will be nowhere to be found. . . I could easily see him in a Helo-the-Cylon-lover pariah type role in the coming season, and possibly aligning with Zarek again somehow, especially if he ascends to the presidency.
X_O
“. . . it’s in the frakkin’ ship!”
I haven’t heard the p-cast yet, but I did watch the episode, and the whole time I’m thinking how much better off the fleet was when they were on N.C.. The only people who have it better off are the military and the president. I’m sure the average person was left alone by the cylons on N.C., but in the fleet they’re stuck on ships, and used as slave labor, and eatting alge … I’m digging that anders is going to fly a viper … that’s fracking sweet. And I’m also thinking that it’s obvious that the best lawyers were killed, because this lawyer representing the colonies sucks … did you notice the new made up word by Racetrack, “I know you blink it in your rack … ” Oh I’m thinking the cylons that are chasing the humans don’t get new ships … I’ve noticed there were only three.
Oh and that’s fracking interesting about S.B. haunting Tory … it makes perfect sense …
I haven’t read all the comments above but I just have to ask…WHY were Tori and Anders staring at each other? What gives???
Love the podcast as always and can’t wait for the off-season ‘casts! 🙂
Nice comments Eric-Michael. Racetrack’s new word was “wank” (or was it yank) like they say in England, Australia, New Zealand, etc. It means…well…just google it. 😉
That rocks that Anders is gonna fly a viper. How did you find that out?
And for the record, I woulda left Lee’s ass, too.
what if the cylons won the 1st war, and everybodys a cylon they just dont know because the cylons want to find earth
Let’s be clear about one thing. Roslin is once again the dying leader (dying of a wasting disease, if I remember the scripture rightly), so she HAS to be the one to find Earth. Right? Does this mean Starbuck’s really gone?
Anyway, I’m pretty sure this means she won’t be cured again by Hera’s blood, otherwise it seems kinda pointless to bring it back, so I reckon if she survives here, season 4 should be her last. (That’s assuming it’s not everyone’s last…)
A quick note – TV listing says next week’s show is from 10:00-11:03 EDT. So in theory, tivos and such should automatically pick it up, but I know I wouldn’t trust that without double checking.
In the RDM podcast he mentions a scene that was cut where Roslyn grills Tori about her having an affair with Anders, saying that Starbuck is a hero for many in the fleet and that her behavior is scandalous.
So maybe she is not hearing the weird radio signals but rather is torn about that…
Wow, I am going to be unpopular… I agree with what Lee did. Yes, he has been turned on his head with Starbuck’s death. But where else was he going to go? He was CAG. I have a hard time believing he would be allowed to become XO with his dad in the next highest rank.
If I were Lee, I would be BORED. No potential for expansion or growth.
Dad teases him with law books and untouched dreams, then yanks it back and calls Lee a liar. Yes he is most likely too naive, but such is youth. I bought that Lee believes in the system. With that, Dee should have been more supportive. Yeah she should have pissed that he quit his day job without discussing it first, but she should have grilled him on that, and being closed off rather than on following what he believed. IMHO marriage is not about always agreeing with each other, but rather supporting each other despite differences … once you walk out, it is very hard to reconcile.
I also felt really annoyed at Adama (whom I normally adore) for being obnoxious in the trial. He really has no business being there, and I find it a double standard that it is just for father a judge, but unjust for son to be on the defense.
*Getting ready to duck…*
Here’s a few theories I’ve got based on my own thoughts and discussion elsewhere. I’ve seen the preview but haven’t looked at the spoilers.
1. If indeed the music is linked to the final five cylons(activation signal perhaps?), why is it happening now of all times? Proximity to the nebula or earth seems likely, but would it be possible that the awakening of the final five has to do with the death of Starbuck? Perhaps her destiny was to die and become a messenger to the final five (exploring the space between life and death anyone?) . Giving them the sign that it was time to reveal themselves for what ever purpose they might have.
2.I’ve got this feeling that this whole deal about the aristocracy and how they’ve been telling us about it for a few episodes. I think it’s possible that we might see another massive power shift like last year on new caprica except instead of the cylons taking over humanity it would be the lower classes that have become disenfranchised because of the exceedingly tyrranical tendencies of both the Admiral and the President. The verdict in Baltar’s trial will probably be the catalyst of this revolution, I’m thinking a 3-2 not-guilty but Adama overrides it and orders Baltar killed reguardless. Which would set off a chain reaction in the fleet fueled by the “Cult of Baltar” that would lead to both Roslin and Adama stuck in jail.
As for leaders, Baltar would certainly be the frontrunner, chief might have enough support via the union, Lee could be a possible underdog due to his breaking away from the military in the defense of his principles, and of course there’s always VP Tom Zarek lurking around. I’m not totally sure about Military leadership, Lee might fill the void but I think he’s done with the military for a while, Helo seems the logical choice here since nobody wants crazy old Tighclops in charge of the military again.
Proton: “Tighclops”…. That’s precious!
And I like your posit regarding Bastille Day ala Baltarianists. RDM mentioned the his likeness more to Charles Manson than Jesus (although I love Sean’s quip about Baltar’s choice of fasion on the Baseship: “Gaius of Nazareth”).
Now…All this discussion about Tory being a Cylon sounds, familiar….
Oh yeah, MAYBE that’s because I said it 3 podcasts ago! >:|
http://galacticawatercooler.com/2007/02/26/gwc-podcast-31/
(Ctrl-F for Writch) No one would listen to me! I tried to warn you! The signs were all there…
And I agree with the Watercooler Trinity about Zarek being a Sleeper of a different kind. I believe he may be the trump that steps in (next season or the Summer Movie, Gods willing) to ‘solve’ a great deal of the problem that hangs in the air – or black, I should say – after the inevtiable reveal next week.
And Matt/Cavatar here are my (late) Galactica Political Party suggestions:
– The Adamlin Party? Call them the “Neo-Colonials”
– Baltar’s Party? I like to call them “the Disestablishmentists” (the long name challenge)
– And Zarek’s third party: The Quorumists
Did anybody notice the parallel between Helo’s doom prediction this finale and his wife’s last season?
Helo: “The weather’s changing, Felix.” (Adds that a storm is coming.)
Boomer: “Something dark is coming. Not anything specific…not one thing.” Something Dark is Coming is also the name of an awesome track from the season 2 soundtrack, btw.
Those aren’t exact quotes, but it’s interesting, and I’m hoping they deliver and match season 2’s devastating twist.
Elspeth, I’m right there with you on Lee. Out of all the characters he’s the only one who has seemed genuinely concerned with preserving the law since the beginning of the series. Just about everyone else in power has played fast and loose when it has served their purposes. I’ll grant they thought they were doing what was best for the fleet but that’s a slippery slope. I was pissed at Adama too for that exchange with Lee. Yeah he just put his drunk friend and XO to bed after he’d gotten nailed on the stand but he wasn’t thinking clearly at all. Lee is sacrificing a lot just to do what’s right under the law and his father and wife should have seen that. Hopefully they will down the road.
Nice call Eyeless. There is a streak of prophecy in the Agethon family I hadn’t thought of. When Hera starts talking, we’d better listen. 😛
Lt. Slinghshot, I think Adama seemed a little drunk in his scene with Lee, which obviously didn’t help him in being as. . . um, tactful as he could have been with his son.
Elspeth, you’re right, the Old Man hasn’t been handling his son in the best way possible, but that doesn’t mean that Lee isn’t getting played. It just means that Lampkin has more fodder for his manipulations, and Lee has more of an excuse to whine. Between both Lee’s and Bill’s grief for Starbuck, plus their general father/son issues, there’s a veritable minefield between the father and son now. Very explosive, very compelling stuff. Again, Lee’s not getting out of this one intact. He might not be my favourite character, but he sure is fun to watch, kinda like Baltar is fun to hate.
Luc, I haven’t listened to the RDM podcast yet (I’m very spoiler-wary, so I’m waiting until the season is over to listen to this one and part 2 together), but if they did cut a scene implicating a Tori/Anders tryst, I’m glad. It seems like it would have come out of nowhere. I mean, to the best of my knowledge, Tori and Anders have never even been in the same room together, much less have started seeing each other. I even found it a little odd that she’d be at Joe’s in the first place. . . If this were the case, though, I don’t think guilt or apprehension over some sort of a ‘relationship’ with Anders (save common Hylon-hood- see my post above) would account for her behaviour, anyway. Tori doesn’t strike me as the kind of person to get so rattled by personal stuff so as to affect her job performance the way we saw in this episode. I think I have to agree with earlier posts, she’s feeling a Boomer-esque phychological breakdown, right down to the zombie-like appearance.
Proton, that’s an interesting point regarding Starbuck’s death being a signal of some sort to the final five. I’m sticking to my guns on the whole ‘2nd phase Hylon sleeper agents’ theory from above. I’ll admit that the Chief is a bit of a stretch, but I think it fits.
Tighclops. . . I like it!
X_O
“It’s in the frakkin’ ship!”
Writch
I love the names, “Neo-Colonials†is perfect!!!
We need go get a symbol, a plat form and everything. Even TV attack adds with voice overs would be cool.
Cavatar
Elspeth,
I’m with you on Lee as well. I think he’s doing the right thing. When people start saying that the system is broken it means they’ve already given up on democracy. Even people like Baltar (who is a slimeball, but I’m not sure if he’s really guilty of anything he’s being accused of) deserve a fair trial. The saddest thing about Lee’s position to me is that his wife would rather leave him than support him on this (yet she stuck around while he was sleeping around with Starbuck. Go figure!).
@HailBaltar,
I also think it would be really cool if the radio waves are coming from Earth. They only travel at the speed of light so if the fleet keeps FTL jumping closer and closer, they should hear more and more modern radio signals. Maybe even some TV eventually (ala Contact).
Given BSG’s political slants, they’ll probably arrive at an Earth in the distant future that is totally under water and filled with greenhouse gases.
Armando wrote: “When people start saying that the system is broken it means they’ve already given up on democracy.”
I completely disagree with this idea. Dee said the system needed to be taken apart and re-built. If she didn’t believe in the integrity of the system (the way it’s supposed to be), why would she want it to be re-built? Wouldn’t she rather have it replaced with a new system if she didn’t believe in the concept at all? Not to mention the fact that democracy has improved a lot through American history because of people who stood up to challenge its problems. At the time they were considered radicals; now they’re heroes.
So I’m going with Dee on this one- the “system” allowed Zarek and Baltar to manipulate the fleet with the settlement idea. Roslin was leaning on the winning side until this maneuver, which was done entirely to win the election, not because Baltar or anyone in his camp wanted to truly settle there. And if the system in the trial depends on the matchup between the conniving, immoral, rule-bending Lampkin and the crappy, disinterested, last lawyer left in the fleet representing the prosecution, then perhaps the system IS broken.
Audra, I have to ask a question since you brought it up. Baltar won the election on a premise he didn’t believe in but the people did. Wrong or right, that was the will of the people that put them on that planet. Fault the people, not the system. It was up to Laura to make a better case and run a better campaign. Would you rather have a world where Laura or any other person in power gets to fix elections because they “know†best? That would have been the outcome in this particular instance. It would have been better for the fleet but as a citizen myself living in a similar democracy, I would never condone that type of action or cede my rights in that situation.
As for Lampkin, he’s guilty of petty crimes due to his kleptomania but in the court room he’s following the same rules as the prosecutor. Are you faulting him for being a better litigator? We the audience know that Baltar is innocent of the crimes he has been charged with and know about things he hasn’t been charged with that he is guilty of. The people in the court room don’t have our knowledge. He did not conspire with the Cylon(z) on New Caprica and those are the charges. How can they convict him on things only we the audience know? They don’t have that proof. Any system will be flawed but looking at the Colonial rule of law it seems a lot like our own. Flaws or not I’m not willing to tear something apart simply because there are a few outcomes we don’t personally like and I’d say the same thing to Dee. Taken in it’s entirety it looks like their system has worked for many years. Otherwise Lampkin’s sarcasm is right, let’s just throw him out the airlock now.
To put it in perspective, I’m pretty sure that OJ killed his wife but I wouldn’t scap our entire legal system because he had better lawyers. Sometimes that’s the way things work out but most of the time we get the right outcome.
First time poster here at GWC. BSG fan from the miniseries premiere. Relatively new listener to the Watercooler.
Roslyn and Admiral Adama – I think if they could hook up, they would. However, both of them have unique, larger commitments that preclude them from really ever making “it” happen. Roslyn is a politician, and when the Presidency was thrust on her in a time of her first personal meltdown w/ the original cancer diagnosis) to what we see as present day has never changed. Politician, its her identity. From the time way back in her story, when she was in bed with President Adar asking him to back off the teachers union. And brokering an agreement with the teachers’ union, and the government. LOL. For Roslyn, it’s certainly not for “moral” issues that they haven’t hooked up. For Adama, he has a failed marriage that he celebrates every year, and deals with everyday in his son.
If there is one thing Admiral Adama is, it’s a soldier. In the miniseries, he was naturally going back to Caprica to retaliate, and Roslyn had to broker for the civilian population’s lives by arguing that “We run. Cylons won.” When he told Chief to “Get his fat ass” in the ring for a real pounding, and proceeding to give the speech about “being soft.” Then fast forward getting in his own flesh and blood’s face telling him, “You’re a soldier! Act like one!” this episode. His identity is soldier. Everything else is human, and pales in comparison to being a soldier. Same for scenario for Starbuck and Apollo. They know they have “higher callings”, even if they aren’t conscious of what they actuallly are.
When I take the lloonngg view of the whole RTF saga, I see that if there is one thing every single character on this show shares, it’s a conflict of some sort. Which is why the President gave an official pardon to every single survivor of New Caprica. I think Baltar’s trial is just another illustration of the “Don’t throw stones in glass houses” type of ordeal that they keep having to re-visit because they don’t understand it. Goes along with the theme of this has all happened before, and it’s happening again. They keep doing the same thing, expecting different results.
“Are you alive?” were the first words Number Six said to the Human diplomat at the Armistice station. “Prove it…” When she says to Baltar (right before the nukes drop on Caprica, but after she tells him she is a cylon) that “Humans have the most amazing capacity for *blah blah* and self deception.” “How do you do that?” Six asks him curiously? I think 3 years later, she STILL doesn’t have her answer, LOL. Thing is, neither do they – the colonials. They just know they have the capacity for it, some more than others, and it can’t be “controlled” absolutely. Which is why pardons and alcohol are necessary, lol. Ever notice how you never see a drunk skin job?
The final five may just be the final 5 models in all of current cylon evolution, not necessarily skin jobs, hybrids, or toasters. Which is why the others never talk about them, ever. It’s an absolute secret, even to them, because they are not fully evolved yet.
We obviously know that the “older models have their uses” ala chrome toasters. One which will only be revealed to “The Chosen One”. What if Tigh and Anders are “older models” that still have their uses? “It’s in the frakkin ship” may very well be their wake up call, so to speak. Tigh and Adama have been friends for what, 40 years? The implications and speculations are endless…lol.
That’s all the random thoughts for now…there are plenty more where those came from, LOL
Whoa, ByYourCommand… Welcome!
Thanks all for your responses. Your agreement wasn’t what I expected, and it brought a huge smile to my face on a really craaaapy *wink* day.
Anyway, I think Dee’s idea of re-building the system is really bad… I am not disagreeing that maybe it should be (rebuilt). I am going back to my geography argument here…Since representation, laws, etc. were land-based, they need to re-evaluate their situation and compensate for their new landless situation…
With that in mind, I would want no part of a system that was rebuilt right before my trial, with convicting me in mind.
Elspeth, to paraphrase Pike when I said I thought I had posted an idea that would get me flamed… “You’re going to have to try harder than that” 🙂 I think a lot of people are happy to see Lee getting back to his roots like when he was willing to put a gun to Tigh’s head to stop a military coup. He’s not even close to being my favorite character but that is the one quality I always respected. For now it’s made him a lonely man. Sorry you’ve had a craaaapy day.
Elspeth – you know I really felt pretty strongly that Dee did the right thing by leaving Lee, but after reading your argument, I think I’m on the fence now. I’ll have to mull this one over. And yeah, you have to try way harder than that. We’re a nice bunch at GWC.
Does anyone miss Starbuck as much as I do? 🙂
I also want to say that Lawyer Bill rocks! I love his contributions to the ‘cast. Thanks!
Jaz,
So say we all!
Dee leaving Lee over this issue wasn’t a surprise to me. Her soldier priorities and loyalties come first in her world. Lee has defected from the lifestyle, sorta. Maybe she needs time to cool off, see how this whole thing works out. She may have a fundamental disagreement with Lee that, for her, is a deal breaker. Unlike cheating, she can’t stomach sharing a life with a man she believes is doing something fundamentally wrong, because it affects the survivors as a whole. Doesn’t mean, depending on how things work out, she doesn’t come back with her head hung low asking for reconciliation.
Obviously, Lee’s grandfather had a profound effect on him. The whole comment about “Be good, but not too good.” was more of a way of saying be your own man, even when it’s everyone else’s opinion he is dead wrong.
When Lee asked Lampkin how he knew his grandfather, and Romo replied “I hated the man. He taught me everything I know.” Let’s face it, for court room dramatics to illustrate his points, he is brilliant. His commitment to defending even the pond scum of society, as Joseph Adama did, is unwavering. Lee is taking it all in like a sponge, and to me, solidifying and differentiating himself, as his father and grandfather did at some point in their lives.
It was Lee who had the idea of infecting the resurrection ship to wipe out the cylons, and his father clearly had reservations about doing that. Although in the end, he gave the orders to terminate the prisoners, as a soldier would when ordered by the Commander in Chief, he didn’t throw Helo in the brig because of this internal conflict.
Bill abandoned Bulldog, for the greater mission purpose. Tigh vented the shafts when the Galactica was on fire. When Bill was helping Saul into his bunk, and Tigh apologized for embarrassing him, Bill said “Saul, you’re my oldest friend. You don’t embarrass me,” it was a pretty profound insight into both mens’ internal commitment to the other.
It will be VERY interesting if the speculation about Tigh being a cylon turns out to be valid.
Did anyone notice that after the girl came in to ask her “god” Baltar to bless her child, Baltar asked Head 6 how many people that had been….Head 6 responded “Five, not including all the letters, etc.”….Could that Five be an indicator that Baltar is really the person that the Final Five worship (from the scriptures)?
What a frakking awesome podcast. I was listening to it last night and I got so hyped up I couldn’t sleep. Everytime yall pointed out something that hadn’t occurred to me yet I got so excited. Crossroads II is going to be ridiculous and I can’t believe the length of time they’re asking us to wait.
I’m with Sean though, I think we’re totally gonna get a little
Starbuck “morsel” to flip us out and whet out apetites.
PS- I don’t know a helluva lot about TOS and it could very well have been posted already but I think it’s worth commenting on all the talk of it being so much like season 1 again. Isn’t it interesting that in each of the Season finales, Starbuck has been out of commission and presumed dead by at least some of the Fleet?
Okay, I am so late for work but I have to say: If Luc’s parapraising is accurate, which I’m sure it is, I am horrified on a personal level about this fling with Tory and Anders. Yay for Roslin for calling her out, even if it was cut. And I do think one could argue that they might have known each other from the Resistance days.
Original point though: gross. Seriously Sam, from SB to Tory? Go after Racetrack or somebody kinda hot.
Lt. Slingshot: Settling on New Caprica was definitely the will of the people, but a leader’s job is not to pander to the will of the people, who may be emotional, or succumbing to mob mentallity, or maybe just not have all the facts. A leader’s job is to do what’s BEST for the people, keeping their best interests in mind. Two very different things, and sometimes they are at odds with each other, such as during the election. I think that’s why Roslyn tried to table discussion about settlement until after the election, unsuccessfully.
Democracy, while a great way to have people’s voices heard, is too dependent on politics. And politics, unfortunately, does not make for great leaders. Sometimes you do need that strong hand to make the tough desicions. I think the RTF is definitely in a position where they need strong, decisive leadership more than they need elected officials. This is why I’ve always given Roslyn and Adama the benefit of the doubt, even when I don’t always agree with what they’ve done. It ties into what Zarek said about the gardener on Cloud 9 at the gathering of the Quorum of Twelve back in Season One: the RTF’s society needs to adapt to their current conditions, as opposed to simply continuing on the same course as if nothing had happened. He may have been talking about economics and such, but I think the principle applies here as well.
By the way, I just watched the episode for the third time, and I noticed something interesting. When Tori is at Joe’s, as she’s walking in, she’s being followed by a very Starbuck-looking extra. . . I had to freeze frame it to catch her- it’s not Kara, but she sure looks like her. While I don’t subscribe to the ‘Tori is Starbuck theory’, it does seem worth mentioning.
X_O
“It’s in the frakkin’ ship!”
Does anyone know how much time has passed between Maelstrom and Crossroads? We go from seeing Anders with a broken leg to now being able to walk, just a thought.
Cavatar
Lee mentioned it had been two weeks since the events of Maelstrom and his conversation with the Old Man in The Son Also Rises, but I don’t think too much time passed between The Son… and Crossroads Pt. 1. Maybe an extra week?
Eyepatch, I’ll wholeheartedly agree that a leader should not succumb to the will of the people when they are motivated by irrational emotion but Baltar was not the leader at that point, he was running a campaign. The question was should that system of free elections that could allow someone like Baltar to be elected be torn down and rebuilt and the same question in regards to the legal system that might get him off. I still contend it was up to Roslin to win that campaign. Suggesting that they table the idea until after the election was a cop out on her part (as well intentioned for the fleet as it was) because she was losing ground. Instead of finding a strategy that would swing momentum on her side, her reaction was first to delay the question and then failing that, attempt to steal it. That’s not the fault of the system, that’s the fault of the politician to make a compelling argument. Look at our current situation in the US. The approval rating of our president is horrid and yet he was elected twice. I don’t blame Nader for pulling votes away from Gore or a wartime situation for Kerry not getting the votes. It was up to the candidates to persuade enough voters to put them in office regardless of the circumstances. The outcome was certainly not what I would have wanted but that doesn’t mean the system is broken. Earn the votes and you can make the tough decisions. For all this babble the system still isn’t being followed since, as it has been brought up a million times, Roslin has never won a single election.
Audra- Not sure if you happened to see it already, but here is the radio that I mentioned a few frak parties ago and Chuck mentioned on this podcast.
http://www.amazon.com/TEAC-SL-D80B-Player-Radio-Black/dp/B00008BWMB/ref=pd_bbs_11/104-6283395-6075966?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1174533214&sr=8-11
Leaders do what is best for the people, but in a democracy the leader has to convince them, they have to help them understand. When Roslin was confronted with the will of the people, she knew they were wrong, and instead of trying to convince them about finding Earth as the scriptures said, or helping them keep hope that there were better things to be had, she resorted to trying to scare them and then fix the election. In short, she did not lead, she manipulated.
Chuck, Audra, Sean. Just finished the podcast tonight.
I’ve got to say, one of the things that really struck me about this episode was something that Audra mentioned.
When Lee’s cross-examining Roslin, and she’s just pleading with him not to take it too far. It really put a personal touch to the episode in my mind. There’s all these bigger-than-life events happening in the series recently, like Baltar being tried for war crimes, Starbuck dying, Lee resigning, Cylons chasing the Fleet – and right in the middle of it all is Roslin pleading with an old acquaintance to do her this one favour because she needs it. At the risk of sounding a little sentimental, I found the scene kind of touching.
Anyways! Other than that, great podcast, really great comments, and I can’t wait for both the episode and your podcast next sunday!
Hey everyone,
!st post, and I haven’t seen anyone say this, but my first reaction after Roslin said her cancer had returned is that she is lying. Now, overall, I like Roslin, but as is said in the podcast, Roslin as a person is different than Roslin as president, and taking into account how she has been the last few episodes, this is making more sense to me. What better way to manipulate the fleet, especially against Baltar, than to bring the prophecies back to the forefront? She is extremely savvy, and what better time than now, when the fleet needs this type of focus? Maybe I am just distrusting by nature (I don’t think so, but I would think that), but the more I think of it, the more of a possiblilty it is. This is in line with what Ryan just said above. If anything, politics, especially during tumultous times, is about manipulation, and this is the best play she has.
Part of my reasoning, or feeling, is the way she says it on the stand. It just doesn’t ring true. Personally, what if she is taking the kamala simply to induce the visions? They are at a turning point, a fulcrum where they need hope and direction, and it is obvious that the fleet is breaking apart, as Zarik said, and Baltar’s trial is going to be the last catalyst.
Anyway, share your thoughts, shoot me down. Great podcast once again. It truly has become CRAAAAACK to me…
Slingshot, you know, you’re making some really good points. I can’t say that I completely disagree with your appraisal of how Roslyn and Baltar handled themselves during the election (although I do think that Roslyn was painted into a corner, and kudos to her for not bowing to the temptation of further politicizing the moment by pandering to the fleet’s desire to colonize NC, but I digress), but that goes to the crux of my argument, and the question of tearing down the system(s): *should* a democratic system, with elections and the risk of bringing the toxic touch of politics be embraced by the leadership of the fleet, given their current, extremely precarious situation? Dee and Zarek are absolutely right: the system is broken, and needs to be replaced with something more appropriate to the RTF’s current situation. Roslyn and the rest of the leadership cannot afford to play the politics game- the risk of having an outcome such as what occurred in the last elections is too great for the fleet. Am I advocating for the rise of the ‘Aristocracy’, as Baltar puts it in his ‘zine? No, not at all, I think the answer lies somewhere in between, some kind of system that includes a strong measure of accountability towards the fleet, but at the same time ensures that strong leadership is allowed to lead, unfettered by the trappings of a political environment. If Roslyn’s cancer turns out to be true, or even if she manages to perpetuate a lie (if she’ really doesn’t have cancer), we’re probably going to see much more of a move away from politics and elections, as she plays into the whole ‘dying leader’ role. It will be interesting to see how this works itself out, because it seems like they’d be going from a democracy (even if it’s in name only, after all, as you correctly state, Roslyn’s never been elected) to a messiah-based theocracy. That is, of course, assuming Roslyn isn’t revealed as a Cylon next week. LOL
Great cast as always. I look forward to next week.
Several people have come down on the Tory as F5 theory and while I respect that as a hypothesis there is something about it that just down not hold true to me. Perhaps I get to hung up on 3’s comments to much, but I still believe that 1) her apology held meaning and 2) it was to a central character within our story.
I first thought that Baltar was too obvious and that Starbuck held a truer ring, but with Starbuck out of the way- we are back to either Baltar or someone else that she owes an apology to.
I will wait until next week to get the shock as I’m sure there will be one.
My only hope is that they do not end the show with Vipers and Raiders flying at each other (ala the Pegasus/Galatica conflict), but if an internal “hurricane” is occurring among the humans and the Cylon(s)z attack we could be left saying “how can they get out of this one” much like we were last season. The absolute worst would be a little tag line coming up saying “two years later”…..
“My only hope is that they do not end the show with Vipers and Raiders flying at each other (ala the Pegasus/Galatica conflict), but if an internal “hurricane†is occurring among the humans and the Cylon(s)z attack we could be left saying “how can they get out of this one†much like we were last season. The absolute worst would be a little tag line coming up saying “two years laterâ€â€¦..”
ill put five dollars, seruosly that happenes
Eyeless, there is a little “benevolent dictator for life†streak running in me so I can’t disagree too vehemently with you. The dire situations that face the fleet could have easily overwhelmed them many times if not for the leadership of Roslin and Adama. You’ve touched on bigger questions that I think the writers intend. Are there times in history that a representative democracy is incapable of coping with? If so what system should replace it? A sub-question in that would be… Are humans capable of sanitizing politics from their systems for any sustained duration? Personally I think the answer to the last question is a resounding no. We just aren’t built that way and it’s often to our detriment. I would never give power to even a benevolent dictator unless of course it was me. 🙂
I might take it back to when Sharon echoed Adama’s question of whether humans deserve to survive. It’s been left unanswered to this point in the show. For all the good we are capable of we are still capable of equal evil. And for the record, I’ve voted each week as approving of the President. I’m not sure exactly how you get accountability without being unfettered by trappings of the political environment. Ok I do know how from real life. You have a single party control all three branches for 6 years and you get no oversight. Whether it is subtle or outright blatant at times, the writing of the show is in many instances an allegory of our times. I can’t agree with Dee and Zarek, the system isn’t broken, it’s the people in it that are broken. Even when you get outcomes you hate, democracies will eventually even things out. Could this result in the entire fleet being destroyed? Well sure but I doubt they are going to do that to us. Hell look at the backlash from just killing Starbuck!
You are probably right on with the religious leader aspect of the show though. The one thing religion in the BSG universe has going on for it is that it has practical use. There’s no bending of vague interpretations to fit a need. Find the arrow, put it in the statue and voila! You’ve got a star map! See twelve snakes on a podium and the next thing you know 12 Vipers are blowing the hell out of a Cylon base. If Roslin can’t use that to stay in power then she’s a pretty poor politician but I’d still prefer that she have to be a politician not Our Glorious Leader.
oops meant Eyepatch! No offense Eyeless! 🙂
Tigh’s Eyepatch,
As Bismark said “Politics is the art of the possible.” And while I may agree with you that the political system in the Fleet is too accomodating to the will of the people, I don’t see any possibility of switching to system that is more of a mix of Democracy and Aristocracy. It seems to me that the three realistic possibilities are 1) status quo ante (on the form of government, if not the personel) 2) Military Dictatorship 3) A much more populist system with much less room for leaders to follow their own best Judgement.
“We need a system where the politicians sit down and discuss the problem, agree what’s in the best interests of all the people, and then do it.” — Anakin Skywalker
I was thinking about what the cliffhanger is going to be and I’ve decided that I’m betting everyone discovers they’re a daggit. Imagine the uproar!
And I don’t buy the idea of them all being Cylonz, unless there’s model #1.008, 1.009, etc. We’ve only got 5 left. And the idea of the music only being heard by Cylonz along with Xena’s apology to the white curtain dude would fit in very specifically with Tigh (New Caprica) and even more so with Anders (parking garage and NC).
Well, it looks like they’ve ordered the back nine episodes for Season 4, and confirmed the movie/special 2hr episode…
http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?category=2&id=40676
Lt. Slingshot wrote: “You’ve touched on bigger questions that I think the writers intend. Are there times in history that a representative democracy is incapable of coping with? If so what system should replace it? A sub-question in that would be… Are humans capable of sanitizing politics from their systems for any sustained duration? Personally I think the answer to the last question is a resounding no.”
Lt., for me, that’s one of the great things about BSG, it asks tough questions of its audience, and more often than not, there is no straightforward, easy answer, just like in real life. You have opinions, different priorities for different people, shades of gray- this makes for compelling drama, not to mention following in the tradition of most great Science-Fiction, in holding a mirror up to our society. BSG takes problems that affect us in the real world, and spins them so that you’re forced to look at them from a different perspective. I’ve found myself on more than one occasion questioning some of my own most closely-held values because of something that the Old Man or Roslyn has done which I may not agree with, but I can see the rationale and thought process behind the decisions they took.
As an atheist, it took me a while to get into the whole religion theme of the show (again, BSG pushing my boundaries). Once I recognized and got past my own knee-jerk reaction, I started to come around to precisely what you say, Lt: religion in the BSG universe is a practical thing, with its roots in historical events and very literal real-world relevance to their scriptures. It certainly makes for compelling television, especially when you combine it with the political dealings going on in the show.
Mack, as Audra said in an earlier post above, democracy is a changing thing, and one of the things I like about BSG is that they don’t have it all figured out. They’ve been through a holocaust, and are trying to hold on to some of the conventions of government from the Colonies, possibly in part because it’s what they know, and are comfortable with. Should there be another system? I think the consensus on here is ‘yes’. However, just as in real life, no one knows exactly how to go about it, or what that system should be. The RTF is going through the same process, and I would be very surprised if they actually did figure it out and reached a workable balance. After all, we haven’t found it in real life yet, either, and our society is not a rag-tag fleet running for their lives in the face of a genocide!
Daggits FTW!!!
Hmm… I’m not too thrilled about the extra episodes because from all that I’ve heard for season 4- “More is less”. Rumor has it that if season 4 got the boost up to 22, that it would be the final 22. Either way, I’m just glad that RDM and Co. will get the chance to finish this story. And word is that SciFi will decide in the next few days whether or not they liked the Caprica pilot script. It’d be cool if we got that after BSG is over. There’s so many great spinoffs they could do with this it’s incredible.
andrew saw next ep. preview on SciFi, a new one andrew fell off seat, err boxy head hurt i boxy cant wait boxy being payed 10$ to talk in 3rd person
EyePatch,
Your comments about democracy moved me. At the risk of bring in real life scripture, they reminded me of a dream mentioned in the old testament. Of a stone, cut out of a mountain, without hand set forth that would one day become smooth and large enough to fill the whole earth. I have no interest in this forum of discussing the biblical meaning of this dream, or of drawing it as a parrallel to the Galatica Universes. I only mean to draw this comparision, that any rought thing become polished by conflict and creates slow and painful change. But it is that slow and painful process that creates thing of great beauty.
i gots an originol of the species theory the F5 were the basis of all others
Tyrol was the dorla origanol (sp?) being a mechanic would be very useful for all ither cylons
Tigh was the first Cavil they kinda remind me of each other also they both ahve the old grey hair look
vould Starbuck and Tory be the same line, an expirment for all other females
Rosilin was the first 3 with the red hair
Lt. Slingshot – sorry to be so late in getting back to you. I think you make a lot of good points, and I’m feeling myself pushed to the middle of this one rather than strongly to one side. I find myself sharing the same thoughts as Tigh’s Eyepatch, in that BSG makes me constantly re-evaluate and question my own political and moral beliefs. You’re right- I don’t want someone who supposedly knows “what’s best.” That could be disastrous (and I think we’ve seen some of that in the real world). Yet I also question, like others, if the state of the fleet is one that can support a true, fair democracy. I know what you’re saying is right, but something in my gut keeps feeling like it’s wrong, too. Or that some part of it is wrong. I guess I need more time to give a better response. *grin*
Elspeth, I love your comment – I would also not want a system to be restructured with the idea of convicting me in mind. Lol!
13th – Thanks for the cool link! That radio is awesome.
13th said, “More is lessâ€
Do you mean “Moore is less?” Or ““Moore is more?â€
(I laughed, anyway.)
Audra I love Stephen Colbert and he also thinks with gut, so you’re in good company. 🙂 As long as we’ve got Roslin and Adama my fears are mostly moot.
“Say what you will about me but never question the plan” Homer Simpson
Sweet