Starbuck’s Fate

So while the Starbuck bomb still rings in my ears I am left pondering the fate of our intrepid space travelers. I am certain most or all of you have checked out the RDM podcast before you could go to sleep Sunday night. In all its scotch clinking goodness Ron expounds on the loss of our favorite frakked up viper pilot.

After listening to his sorrow and whatnot I am still unconvinced of Starbuck’s non-return. It’s true that no one in TV or Sci-Fi for that matter is above being written off the show for whatever reason but Kara is pretty close. She is almost untouchable and a valuable part of the whole BSG gig… perhaps not quite as valuable as the ship Ed smashed to bits (Didn’t I tell you about breaking things? It never does you any good.), but she is valuable none the less.

This line of thinking leads me to pondering the good Captain’s role in the universe – post fireball. Let’s say for a moment that Starbuck died and she does find her way back to life, be it Cylon or human. Let’s say she may even have the road to earth mapped out in the back of her head or have insight to a great truth of our existence that has yet to be discovered written on the back of a cocktail napkin she stole from heavens restroom. These are possibilities yet to unfold, but let’s say for a moment that she comes back with it.

If that is indeed the case, everyone is boned.

Walk with me on this one – they didn’t know what to do with her when she was a messed up viper pilot; can you imagine what happens if Starbuck comes back as some sort of messiah, cosmic messenger or holy figure? That might be an interesting little switch for the powers that be. Not only can she mess your face up in a ring or a cockpit she is guided and touched by the gods themselves with a divine destiny. Try giving that orders and expecting them to stick.

Perhaps Kara would only half embrace her role as the leader of man or Cylon kind. Perhaps you can put the destiny of the gods in the girl but can’t get the girl out of the cockpit.

Will nuggets be reading from the book of Starbuck?

“…and yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of algae I fear no Cylon for I am half lit and lo do I have a viper. So say we*Hiccup*, eh whatever.”
~ The Book of Starbuck 3:05

116 Responses to "Starbuck’s Fate"
  1. frank says:

    Wow that is deep guys, perhaps Audra could write an outro based on the Book of Starbuck? That would be a riot. (I want half the royalties when they start rolling in.)

    Whatever they do with Starbuck (I agree her story can’t be over) They have got to be careful not to be too cheesy.

    I may be alone, but the shes a cylon thing in my mind would be a cop out.

  2. Turk says:

    As I posted in the last thread… Starbuck is the Messiah. Think Muah’Dib in Dune type Messiah and she’s going to be bad ASS!

    “The Sleeper has awoken…”
    ~Turk

  3. Sean O'Hara says:

    Turk, I love the Dune series! One of my all time favorites. I was getting a Muah’Dib vibe from her as well. That would SO rock!

    “The spice must flow”

  4. eyeless says:

    Guys, I’m wondering if Starbuck is just DEAD. That would be so Ronald D. Moore. (He strongly implied this in the podcast.)

    Maybe all the not-so-subtle hints about Starbuck’s destiny were just to throw us off.

    But then, I can’t imagine having the a good episode without Katee Sackhoff. She’s easily my favorite actress of the bunch, and not just because she’s got that amazingly gorgeous smile. She can really draw you into the emotion of her character, to the point that all other characters seem like sideshows whenever she’s had a character moment.

    God, this show deserves some Emmies.

  5. The 13th Cylon says:

    Kind of interesting that few of us are actually confident she’s a Cylon. And if she’s a Cylon, doesn’t she have to be one of the final 5? Unless she’s like model 0. I’m going to totally believe them though, I guess.

  6. Joe says:

    Honestly, I don’t buy it. BSG has always mentioned spiritual beings and talked about mythological religious types things, but always stood on the border between fantasy and reality. For them to suddenly jump into a world where there really do exist Greek Gods and almighty spiritual beings would just be cheesy. There’s no way around the cheese factor. There’s also no way that Starbuck’s story is over. The whole season, the whole series, they’ve been talking about her special destiny. Either her destiny has already been fulfilled and no one knows it yet or there is some magnificent event coming up.
    Kara can’t be a God or an angel or anything fantastical. That would be too much of a stretch and it would literally ruin the show. RDM and DE are smarter than that. They have something better planned that we can’t understand yet. Guaranteed we’ll have a better clue in three weeks.

  7. Carol says:

    Just finished listening to RDMs podcast. I’m not convinced that she’s ‘truly and sincerely dead’ with no hope of ever seeing her luminous, yet conflicted face again. They were very careful, it seemed to me, how they spoke about it. I think they really want us to believe that Katee is done, because that enhances the impact if she’s not, presumably revealed sometime in the 13 episodes in 2008. Mrs. Ron even said ‘have faith’, at the end. I’m going to stay in denial until the bitter end, and if we see no more of Katee, even throughout 2008, that will be very bitter, indeed.

  8. Aurora says:

    Head Six

    Head Baltar

    Head Aurora?

  9. The 13th Cylon says:

    Well if happen to die in the next 9 months, I’ll tell you all if I happen to see another one of her model on the

  10. The 13th Cylon says:

    Well that wasn’t supposed to happen and totally butchered my lame attempt a joke in the wee hours of the morning. Well obviously it was going to end with “on a Resurrection ship”.

    But Leoben did say that she was a Cylon, right? Maybe I just projected all that into existence. And now that I search for it, I can’t find it on Wiki saying that she’s a Cylon. I’m not going mad, am I?

  11. Ray says:

    After listening to RDM’s podcast I’m still in denial, holding out for a wormhole style twist (I’m still trying to work out a theory of how she escaped/survived the viper explosion). I really don’t think it was a satisfactory end to the character that she decides to fly into a storm and die. But I don’t like people who complain, so I’m going to have to wait to see what kind of impact this has on the other great characters and rest of the show. If this was just to get her out of the way because she had no part in the season finale then I’ll be a bit disappointed by it. And if they kill of Baltar next, I’m going on strike.

    But with all the talk of Starbuck’s special destiny, the 4,000 year old symbol that links her whole life to a temple of the final five and supernova leading the way to Earth, suicide is REALLY not where I saw it all going. She better be coming back, or else I’m going to need to take some serious time out to mourne… by watching her smack Tigh back in the miniseries.

  12. Moe says:

    Starbuck is dead but Katie Sackhoff still has a job.

    Just as Leoben wasn’t really Leoben this time I think Sackhoff will come back and not really be Starbuck. Can you imagine how unnverving a calm, in control dare I say mystical being that looked like Starbuck would be to the other characters?

    I think her destiny was not to suicide – that would be uncool by the production staff. Her destiny was to die at this time and place for some reason yet to be revealed.

    BTW I LOVED the transition from the cockpit warning to the alarm clock. This was a very tight episode.

  13. Manicorn 7 says:

    Starbuck dead…? What a waste that would be. She’s the heart of the show if you ask me. Haven’t listened to RDM podcast yet, but loved Audra’s new “outro”. The miniseries started with Starbuck jogging (or is it yogging with a silent “J”) thru the halls of the Galactica. I think they will tie Starbuck’s death into the final cliff hanger at the end of this season. Gotta be the case. Don’t know if anyone mentioned this, but did anyone else notice that when Starbuck was talking to Adama and Rosyln in the hallway the lights went off when Starbuck was in one area and then came back on again when she left that area and walked toward the Admiral and the Prez…? May be it was just a foreshadowing gag, but it seemed odd to me upon first viewing. Plus…what kind of special destiny would it be to just “die”? THAT is everyone’s destiny on some level. Not that special if you ask me. My 2 cents is that we will see Starbuck again on some level.

  14. Athenor says:

    No.. Leoben said starbuck had a destiny.. And he said the Old Man was a cylon.

    Both, I believe, are true. But if you’ve followed my ramblings, you know I buy into the mysticism a lot heavier than most of the people here.. and I don’t mean cylon as in toaster or skinjob.

  15. Armando says:

    Kara’s dead, guys. Face it. I do agree, though, that we might see her again, but not in the same way. She might be a flashback, in someone’s head (wouldn’t that be interesting if Lee started seeing her like Baltar sees Caprica Six?) or some sort of mystical being, although I don’t see that as very likely (and hope that it doesn’t since yes, RDM and DE have kept the mysticism/spiritual element of the show as realistic as possible. I certainly don’t want to see the flashing white ship from the original series).

    It seems to me that her destiny is to somehow, in her death, point the way to earth. The fact that she sees the gas storm as the eye of Jupiter drawing is significant. It’s just that we, like the people on Galactica, don’t know what the significance of her death is quite yet. One thing is certain: no one on the show will ever be the same again.

  16. Athenor says:

    Alright, guys. Let’s be honest here for a second.

    The way to earth is dictated by scrolls, that somehow magically got to the 12 colonies from the 13th.

    The colonists believe in gods named after the Greek pantheon, the cylons believe in a one true god and have 5 models that no one is allowed to investigate.

    Visions have been part of the show since season 1. An arrow led to a wholly unexplainable vision, that nothing on the show recreates. People have mental images all the time.

    There has ALWAYS been mysticism in the show. It isn’t hidden, it isn’t subtle, it isn’t downplayed. Many of the show’s strongest moments have involved exploring this mysticism.

    The fictional narrative of Battlestar Galactica is not a secular one. I’m just gonna come out and say it. Things happen in this universe with quantifiable observations, but without explanation. It is a part of the show, and it can’t be downplayed.

    And Kara dove right into the heart of it, literally and metaphorically. It marks a turning point, for all of us.

    She may not come back. I fully could see RDM doing that to frak with us, although thematically it wouldn’t make sense. And let’s be honest — the show was all about training Kara to see the message, and so that she WON’T come back as some hotshot with nothing to lose. She was not the same woman when she dove into the maelstrom.. She wasn’t trying to kill herself for a cowardly reason like Lee did.

    But regardless… This show is going to get more mystical in its final run-up. The secular on the show has no possible way of finding Earth or stopping the cylons — Helo took care of the latter, and the former is sheer probability. Thus, the show needs to be put in the hands of the mystical to get them home… And that is Kara’s role. It has been ever since she saved Lee, stole the raider, flew the heavy raider back to Caprica… Well, it’s been that way the whole show.

  17. Elspeth says:

    Oooo, What if she came back, but blind (by the light)? I know there are much better theories on the board, but that would be ironic on so many levels. – A blind viper pilot and artist – a death of “Starbuck” and a rebirth of Kara Thrace.

    Hey, I really just don’t want to see her go and after the RDM podcast it doesn’t look good.

  18. Athenor says:

    See, I just don’t read the podcast that way.

    For one, RDM’s wife was with him, and seemed to be stopping him every now and then from saying certain things. Sort of like a check valve.

    Two, he kept calling the maelstrom a nebula. Now.. The maelstrom probably means nothing.. But his constant mental linking of Kara to the nebula seemed to be a LOT more telling. Perhaps the nebula (“The Passage”) was originally to be her spiritual awakening… and then they came up with this idea? Either way, death or no, she needed to have a spiritual awakening. Listen to the original pitch of the ep.. She was to be tempted by the sirens 3 times, and barely escape. That, my friends, is a DIRECT reference to Oddyseus, who tied himself to his mast so he could hear the siren’s song and fight against it. Kara was tempted by the siren.. and went in… She had no one to pull her out in the end.

    You could read that as her being done, sacrificed, she made the wrong choice. I see it as the passage into Hades.

  19. Elspeth says:

    Sorry, I left this part off.

    This way she could take on a new identity, blind seers show up a lot in mythology.

    I plucked this from Wikipedia regarding Tiresias:

    “Death
    Tiresias died after drinking the water from the spring Tilphussa, where he was struck by an arrow of Apollo. After his death he was visited in the underworld by Odysseus, to whom he gave valuable advice concerning the rest of his voyage, specifically concerning the cattle of Helios, which Odysseus’ men did not follow.”

    Even if (as most likely – although lots the people in the fleet are a lot like cattle 😉 ) these things have nothing to do with the plot, I find it interesting how much BSG has plucked out of mythology and scambled up and retold.

  20. Athenor says:

    Ah, okay. Sorry for jumping at you.

    That said.. I don’t know if the original BSG was inspired by The Odyssey, but I am more than certain that this BSG is.

  21. Sean O'Hara says:

    Hmmm, excelent points Ath, I can see where you’re coming from.

    Though I still am gonna have to go with either she is going to learn almost nothing and just be at peace when she comes back or she is going to be some sort of prophet but she is coming back in some way as Starbuck.

    I always look at the RDM podcast as a sort of BSG oracle. He tells you exactly what you need to hear in order to get you to buy the story he has just presented you and believe a certain way. That’s why he can be found to contradict himself on occasion. His cast is part insider info and part performance. At least that’s MHO anyway. 🙂

  22. Saberhawk says:

    Well, at least one REALLY positive thing came from this episode – the love quadrangle, square, tetrahedron died also.

  23. Sean O'Hara says:

    LOL!!! Saber, you rock!

  24. Athenor says:

    You think so, Saberhawk?

    Come now. Anders is going to be an absolute wreck, Lee’s going to spiral into depression, Dualla is going to resent Lee for spiraling into depression…

    Then think of all the possibilities for if/when she returns! =P

  25. Saberhawk says:

    Lee is going to be to busy preparing for trial.

    Dee is going to be to busy with morning sickness.

    Anders is fracked. Hope they do something more than have him haning out at Joe’s downing one after another.

  26. Moe says:

    I can’t remember who commented on it first (actually that is one of the things I like best about this site – very little “I said that first in my post on Jan. 23!! That is MY THEORY!! I was the first one to point out blah blah blah…)

    Anyhoo I can’t rember who mentioned it first but seeing the Starbuck scrapbook with no corners cut was really bizare. It looked “wrong”. I just watched the video blog on scifi.com about it. Strange that noone caught it after all the trouble theyve taken with it. It reminds me what a great job they do on the show when something does slip by.

    I’m just trying to block out of my mind how long the layoff is going to be. Sigh. Hope these next three eps pack a big bang.

  27. Chuck says:

    Moe: Not that it’s any substitute for new eps, but we’ll be around during the break with weekly ‘casts.

    All: The more I think about it, the more I’m starting to agree with the concept that Starbuck is dead but Katee’ll be making more appearances on the show. It’s certainly going to be a big subject during the off-season.

  28. eyeless says:

    Come to think of it…remember the very end of the RDM podcast? His wife basically starts to comfort all the Kara fans, and RDM hijacks it deftly and promises a wild ride ahead, telling the boys and girls to “stick around.” Whatever it is, I’m excited. =D

  29. Ryan says:

    I hate that this is my intial entry on the blog, but I happen to think that from the point of character development alone, killing Starbuck is proably the best thing the writers could have done. Put aside all of the mysticism for a moment, and you see that all Kara has ever done is cause turmoil in everyone else’s life. Now maybe with her death, they can all find a direction. Lee & Adama especially have seemed to waiver alot since New Caprica. And maybe Anders will finally get off his bar stool and do something to help the fleet other that satisfying the hot shot pilot every now and then.

    I’m not saying they will all be better off without her, only that her death provides a dramatic moment that will all allow the writers to develope the other characters in really meaningful ways. If they do that, and she never comes back, I still think it would be worth it.

    Anyway, be nice to first timers.

  30. Carol says:

    I’ll go along with the Starbuck is dead thing, since it’s pretty hard to get
    away from, but I refuse to think that Katee is gone from the BSG universe.
    I don’t want her to be a ‘normal’ Cylon, ’cause that’s just too boring for
    such a great character and it wouldn’t make sense. It would be fun to have
    her be a HeadStarbuck, but then we’d be limited to her interacting with just
    one person, and that would not be enough. I want to see her metamorphosize (sp?) into Something New, something we haven’t seen before. But it’s gotta have personality. It can’t just be some completely serene thing, ’cause, frankly, that’s dull. This is going to sound stupid, but I’m still having trouble dealing with this. She’s, By Far, my favorite character. I had trouble sleeping last night. I know, I know, it’s just a show.

    On a side note, I love how she deals with her hands. Notice the hesitation whenever she puts her hands in someone elses, the tentative flexing of the fingers, the vulnerability of it, the way they seem almost stiff. It has to be tremendously difficult for Kara to put her hands (which are key to her job, that she strongly identifies with, as well as her art, and which have been seriously damaged, multiple times), into the hands of someone else, giving up control, risking hurt, again.

  31. Carol says:

    No worries, Ryan, this is a very respectful and friendly board.

    I agree that this will allow for interesting character development for
    Lee, Anders, possibly others. I just can’t stomach yet the idea that
    she won’t come back, in some form or other.

  32. Moe says:

    Chuck – quite aware and happy that the Watercooler will stick around.

    I came late to the party started with episode 9 or so from season 2 and just finished watching everything before that. I look forward to discussing the early eps with y’all.

    I think the key meme they are going to build the series consuldion around will be the “this has all happened before and this will all happen again”. I think they might even work in a link that somehow the original series happened in the same universe in a prior iteration of the cycle.

    I kinda hope they don’t do a movie if that means that they will avoid having a true conclusion to the show.

  33. ShinyFab says:

    I’m still making my way through the thread, but before I get all inundated with other fabulous ideas. My first thought was “NO!”. But my second thought was “that’s it?” So Starbuck’s destiny was to find what lies between life & death by dying. And that’s it? Does her destiny have ANYTHING to do with the destiny of the fleet? Was there a real point to killing her off in regards to the fleet as a whole and its quest to find Earth? Or was it just meant to frak up the Adamas? I don’t think she’s coming back at this point. Yes I’m still upset they killed off Starbuck and I think I may need to calm down a little more before I do any deep exposition. It just seems like a little of a let down that as important as she seemed to be, Starbuck’s destiny (right now) doesn’t seem to impact more than personal relationships.

  34. ShinyFab says:

    Okay, so the personal relationships are important. Not saying they aren’t. It just seemed, from the build up, that she would impact the fleet as a larger whole.

  35. Athenor says:

    Hey.. I come out and get egotistical all the time. =P But I get what you are saying. I’ve tried to tone it down, as this is more of a collaborative plot analysis anyway. And that’s part of why it’s more often than not correct — as a group, GWC is able to decipher the show far better than any single person can.

    Chuck, Sean, Audra: If you don’t review the entire show, at least review the “Starbuck” episodes. I think they need special attention, now.

  36. Athenor says:

    So here’s one for you guys.

    A lot of people have been saying “so say we all” in relation to Starbuck’s death, in place of something like “amen.”

    Anyone else getting really, REALLY creeped out by that?

    I mean… So say we all is meant as a signifier of cohesion, of unity. It specifically draws people together, expresses shared thoughts.

    Yet.. it is stronger than something like amen. The act of saying something implies you mean what is said.. It means it is part of your values. And to imply everyone says it.. it’s a bit dictatorial.

    What’s more.. “so say we all” is essentially what the cylons do when they vote as a model #. It’s their overarching identity.. one body with many minds.

    It just.. freaks me out anytime I see BSG fans here sign off or show acceptance with that phrase. It is, in and of itself, an act of control.

    But then again, it’s a good way to show unity and support of the show. 😉 I’m just saying… Analyze just that line, and you’ll get a shit-ton of connotation taken with it.

  37. Saberhawk says:

    So say we all……..LOL – just fracking with you Athenor. I always like your comments – they show a lot of thought. I don’t think I have ever said the comment, but I would not have thought twice about writing it back as a response in this forum.

    Now, back to Starbuck. If Sci-fi and RDM are not trying to pull “yet another one” on the fan base and are truly moving into the final stages of this series – then the Death really will be final. I grant the possibility of HeadStarbuck or “flashback” Starbuck or even Cylon/Hylon Starbuck, but I think “live” Starbuck is gone.

    Perhaps the corporate suits at Sci-fi don’t want to get caught in another Stargate situation with two similar shows (even though Caprica is set is a different time) running at the same time. Frankly, it may be RDM’s thoughts as well after DS9 and Voyager. I can just imagine how good Caprica will be if the same writers move off this show and onto that one.

  38. Athenor says:

    Now that’s something I can get behind. BSG needs a definitive end… and then can go onto something like Caprica, which shows the lead-up, or Earth, which shows afterwards. But they can’t be running at the same time. Interest would wane in one or the other.

    Caprica, however, will be ruined somewhat by the “big reveal” of who/what the cylons are, IMHO. I think “Caprica” is a smoke screen for whatever will be the sequel to BSG, when they -find- Earth.

    Ever played the games Homeworld and Homeworld 2? Homeworld was -brilliant-, and it tells a story VERY similar to BSG. But for homeworld 2 (and Cataclysm, for that matter), they needed to introduce outside threats that subjugated the homeworld in order to create compelling drama. It’s kind of the only way… and it can’t be the same story, in the same plot arc, as the original discovery.

  39. Birdman says:

    My first post, but I have a way-out-there- theory that I haven’t seen or heard yet. I believe the Maelstrom/Nebula is going to turn out to be a wormhole or gateway and Starbuck will emerge at the end of the season and no one will know if they can trust her.
    That could be her destiny, to find the short cut to Earth.
    Secondly, did my eyes decieve me or did Lee see the “Raider” just before Starbucks Viper “exploded?”

  40. Carol says:

    Birdman, there was certainly a shot that showed Kara’s viper, the heavy raider, and Lee’s viper all in the same shot. It did look, to me, like it was a view from behind Lee’s viper and to the left side, so more of a dispassionate camera-eye view, rather than Lee’s specific view. Not sure if he saw it or not, but he certainly could have (and since it was moving, you’d think it would catch the eye).

    If Starbuck does emerge, either at the end of this season (unlikely), or sometime in the next, you can be certain that no one would trust her and they’d assume she was a Cylon (and I don’t think the fleet has an accurate Cylon test since Baltar changed his to always be green).

  41. Ziggy says:

    I just rewatched it with a more critical eye. Just before she “died” there was that real bright glow in front of her face. It seemed awfully similar to the glow in front of D’ana when she saw the “other 5 cylons” in the temple on the algae planet. I think something took her out of her viper, or captured her viper and the explosion Lee saw was a projection to make him think she’s dead.

    Here’s a theory: I think Kara is a human/cylon hybrid like Hera. A big clue to this was when she and Hilo were talking in the locker room and he talked about Hera’s nightmares, comparing them to Starbuck’s. Her mother was in the military during the first cylon war. She fell in love with a cylon infiltrator, and either married him, or continued the affair after the war and he is Kara’s father (she didn’t get pregnant during the war since Kara is much younger than 50 or so.) Her father was one of the other 5, or maybe a Leobin model, maybe the same one who held Kara captive (yuck ;-). However, I bet it was one of the other 5, and the whole thing with Kara and her destiny is part of a plan by the other 5, which is different than the Seven, likely in opposition. Maybe the one Kara thought was Leobin in her vision, but later realized it wasn’t, is actually her real, cylon father.

    There’s obviously a conflict between the Seven and the other five cylon models. The other 5 have their human/cylon hybrid, thats why the Seven wanted their own, thus Hera.

    I bet they don’t reveal that Starbuck is still alive until either the cliffhanger, or maybe not until next season.

  42. Athenor says:

    HOLY FRAK!

    LEOBEN!!!!!!

    HOLY F’IN HELL!

    ….

    *breathes deep*

    Oh man.

    What if Leoben is #1?

    If he really is Kara’s father, it would explain:

    A) Why they wanted her for info on cross-breeding, as she was the first success.

    B) how Kara could lead both the humans and the cylons to the future.

    C) how Kara’s mother would know about her destiny.

    D) How he knew about Ragnar station.

    Oh man.

    … OOHHH man. this could throw all my theories about Starbuck RIGHT out the window.

  43. Athenor says:

    Sorry about the double-post..

    but it would explain why Leobin wanted so desperately for Kara to love him…

    I do believe we need to see that scrapbook closer…

  44. Carol says:

    Athenor, re: A) Yeah, it would be plausible that they’d really want her ovaries/eggs/whatever (note: on one side only), so they could use them to continue their genetic evolution. She’s already a step ‘up’ on the ladder from the rest, and they had to worry that she had a chance of dying, due to being in a risky occupation, and if she’s really the first Hylon, perhaps they don’t know if she’d be re-born. In fact, it might seem quite likely to them that she wouldn’t (presumably there aren’t a buncha Kara bodies in a resurrection ship somewhere) and they didn’t want to lose her cells. Though, this doesn’t really fit with why they’d be so pre-occupied with Hera, then, if Kara is already a Hylon. Unless the rest don’t know. Rambling, I know. Sorry.

  45. Athenor says:

    I don’t think anyone but Leobin knows. It’s not like they believe him half the time, when he listens to the hybrids.

    Cavil might.. but Cavil knows everything, by the looks of it. =P

    It would explain Kara’s inability to die, the ability to make the raider work, the lack of a glowing spine for Lee or Anders to see..

  46. Adml. Cain's Cabin Boy says:

    Could RDM be referencing the Lagoon Nebula in the constellation Scorpius form back in the second season.

    Back in season 2 Home, Part II, in the Tomb of Athena during the Holo deck scene Kara is first to point out that the group was standing on planet Earth. During the simulation Lee sees a stellar object they call the Lagoon Nebula. The image they show us is blurry at best but it begins to make you wonder.

    And if you really want to bake your noodle follow this link to see the most recent NASA image of the real world Lagoon Nebula:
    http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060825.html

    It looks rather familiar

  47. Athenor says:

    Was she the one who caught and pointed out the nebula, out of that map, to send them home?

    *makes another mark on the “Kara as the prophet” checklist*

    (and again, if I’m posting too much I apologize. I don’t want to take away from anyone, I just want to spur discussion.)

  48. Adml. Cain's Cabin Boy says:

    Kara was the one who quoted the scriptures that from earth the 13th colony could see his 12 brothers in the sky.

    Lee was the one that saw the Nebula.

    By the way the alarm clock in Kara’s apartment said, “Good morning Delphi” wonder if there is a connection there.

  49. Ray says:

    I like the thought on the bright light on Starbuck’s face being somehow linked to the final five. I mean, with what Leoben said about finding out what lies between life and death, it kinda fits. At first I just assumed it was a visual cue that she’s embracing death, but I’m up for any theory that suggests she’s still alive somewhere, somehow.

    Another unresolved thing that’s mentioned above. Who the hell was this non-Leoben? And that’s something we definitely can’t find out if Starbuck’s really dead. I like the idea that he could be her father, but I don’t know if there’s anyway that could be possible.

    I have a small slightly-related theory on the Head people. I thought Head Six was telling the truth way back when she said she was an angel sent by god to help Baltar, dismissing the possibility that she’s just Baltar’s subconscious because it would be too big of a coincidence with Caprica Six and Head Baltar. Now with Non-Leoben added to the mix, it seems that all these characters are kinda guardian angels sent to guide their respective characters to something. Whether these guardian angels are linked to the final five or not, I couldn’t say, but I guess it’s another possibility.

  50. Athenor says:

    Delphi? You mean the Oracle of Delphi? *wink wink*

  51. tanstaafl says:

    My theory is that Starbuck isn’t dead. We’re supposed to think that she is and, I think, Starbuck is supposed to think that she is. I think that what we are seeing is another mind-frell game that Leoben is up to.

    We know that Leoben kept Kara prisoner all those months back on New Caprica, introduced her to Kacey and all the things he put her through just to get her to the point where she said “I love you”. Yeah, she killed him (again) right after that but still, he directed and manipulated things to that point.

    Suppose this is Leoben manipulation, phase 2. We don’t know what was done to Kara, really, either on New Caprica or back at the Farm on (Old) Caprica for that matter. Who knows, maybe the genetic material the Cylon/s/z took from her lets them manipulate her from a distance or something.

    At any rate, if anyone knows how Starbuck is going to react to something, it would probably be Leoben; he probably knows her better than anyone (probably even better than herself). So, he sets everything up so that her Viper gets destroyed and he rescues her in the mysterious heavy raider.

    So the next thing that happens is that Kara “wakes up” in a vat of goo and Leoben tells her that she died and was resurrected. She didn’t, of course, but she can’t know that for certain. Then, he tries to convince her that she is a Cylon. Maybe the Cylon/s/z want her skill and her destiny on their side.

    Kind of rambling, but that’s the theory I’m going with until I get proven otherwise.

  52. Adml. Cain's Cabin Boy says:

    Touching the angel theory…

    In many epic stories when angels appear to someone they manifest in many different forms. Most often in SciFi stories like BSG they are powerful aliens that appear in a form of their own choosing or a form that disguises their true nature. In Babylon 5 the Vorlons would appear different to any of the younger races that perceived them to protect themselves. In JRR Tolkien’s the Silmarillion the Valar would appear different to the younger races because they could change their form at will and even take the form of aspects of nature.

    For my part, I do not believe that any of the head characters we have seen to date are what we perceive them to be. I think the head characters are manifestations of the final five.

  53. Athenor says:

    So… EW.com has their review of the ep up. It seems to have sailed right over the reviewer’s head, as any deeper plot analysis feels tacked on. He barely touched on meaning, almost implying that things were meaningless. He’s also getting tired of the “head” characters.

    He also apparently has pissed off a ton of people, because the review’s tagline spoils the episode.

  54. The 13th Cylon says:

    I feel more and more like she is going to pop up in something similiar to the Ship of Lights from the original series. Before Season 1 started, RDM said that one of the storylines they were looking to update is the Ship of Lights thing. I thnk this would also explain why the Final Five (I will now refer to them as the F5 lol) were so bright when D’anna saw them. The Ship of Lights story from the original had beings in white and were extremely bright. I’m thinking that the F5 are going to be on the Ship of Lights and possibly help lead the humans towards Earth. Starbuck would still be dead, Katee Sackhoff would would be back, we’d see the distinction of the F5, and we’d also see that she has a destiny. Its hard for me to kind of piece my thoughts together on this and its more like a Swiss cheese theory right now, but that’s what I’m thinking right now.

  55. Jaz says:

    Hi everyone! WHAT AN AMAZING EPISODE. And thank you, as always, for such a great podcast!

    I agree that Starbuck will be back but as a luminous, serene, mystical being of some kind. Wouldn’t that be great character development? They took her to one extreme where we hated her for all the frakked up things she did, then they’re going to turn her into the other extreme: absolute benevolence. We’ll love her even more because we loathed her so thoroughly beforehand.

    As all of us scifi geeks know this is a common theme throughout science fiction…taking a very flawed, mortal character and imbuing her with some kind of evolution or chemical or spiritual awakening that transforms her into a higher being of some kind. Frakkin’ awesome. I can’t wait.

    Gods why, oh why do they have to break for 10 frakkin’ months? Audra was right in #30 that we BSG fans will get twitchy and have to put on skits. Hey, for the hiatus… what about a bunch of comedic contests…like a BSG scripture contest, a poetry contest, a scene contest. Everything could be satirical and sarcastic. I’d love to see what people come up with.

    I’d also love to watch the whole frakkin’ BSG canon from the beginning and hear podcasts about them. I just love listening during my commute and I’d love to keep watching and discussing episodes during the RIDICULOUSLY LONG hiatus. 🙂

  56. Jaz says:

    By the way, that ‘Book of Starbuck’ thing rocks. I can’t believe how funny that is. 🙂

  57. Saberhawk says:

    13th – I think yo may be onto something. I still go back to 3 apologizing to “somoone”. Besided Bltar – Starbuck is the obvious individual. By making her a F5 it keeps a lot of fans happy and tidy’s up a lot of story.

    The F5 are different and we do not know what they are capable of doing.

    I still do not believe the writers or RDM will take the story to far into the fantasy realm, but the craaap with the oracle this episode stepped pretty far. With that ability – she should be the head navigator or perhaps even the president…..is she dying?

  58. Skyrocket says:

    I agree with Audra that if Starbuck was really dead they wouldn’t have opened so many new cans or worms.

    I wonder if since Auroura is the goddess of dawn if that isn’t some sort of clue that Starbuck will bring some sort of “dawn” to the series. Maybe the way to Earth or some greater understanding of the deal with the Final Five.

    Also, name wise, she now has a tie to a deity. Apollo, Athena, and Auroura. Hhhmmm…maybe nothing, maybe something.

  59. Elspeth says:

    I just wanted to comment, and I really don’t know where to put it.

    I really don’t understand the reluctance to go into fantasy with this scifi show. I think that scifi and fantasy are very closely related.

    Both scifi and fantasy require the view to suspend disbelief. Both require an author or writer to create an imaginary world. Both require that same writer to create some sort of rules for that world. These rules can extend to the way magic works, i.e. “the will and word” or “born ability” methods. These rules extend to jump/warp or hyperdrives and wormholes.

    I think some of the best books I have read are *excuse me* hybrids of both. It keeps the stories interesting. And if you read a LOT, it keeps the books from being formulaic.

    I think there have been a lot of bad fantasy books, shows out there that jump the shark because there is a lot of build up, trouble and at the end there is some sort of magic trick that feels like a cop out. This is also typical of bad scifi. I can’t tell you how many times my husband screams at the television because, as a computer science engineer, there are things that just are totally incorrect, or require way too much disbelief.

    I loved the Matrix – but I always wondered why they needed a land line. They should have been able to pick up a cell phone. It certainly would have been easier, albeit less interesting, while being chased. Anyway, I digress.

    I think that BSG does a great job of adding fantasy into a scifi environment. After all, in the BSG world, the mysticism, the oracle, the prophecies are usually found in fantasy, and more importantly RELIGION. And religion is a very real influence in our very real world.

    I say as long as BSG sticks with the rules it has established for it’s world, it is ALL GOOD. And much more interesting!

  60. Rich says:

    Need help explaining to girlfriend the significance of Kara’s “death”. Can anyone share a good analogy from normal people’s shows? For example, could you say, Kara’s “death” is the same as if Joey from Friend’s just died during an acting gig. Or the same as if Elaine met her end while writing one of her product descriptions.

    Please help this boyfriend who’s trying to connect with significant other. Thank you beforehand for the translation.

  61. Challabuck says:

    Stepping outside the story/mythology for a moment, the anecdote RDM reveals at the end of his podcast is astonishing. Eddie O, totally improvising and unleashing his real rage at Katie’s death, smashed a very real and near priceless model ship (or at least prohibitively expensive) into smithereens. Now that’s method acting at its finest. I’m still laughing at RDM’s description of the model handlers almost fainting offset from the shock.

  62. Jim says:

    Destiny, Destiny, no escaping Destiny, no escaping that for me, destiny… destiny … destiny… I am not a Frankenstein!!!!

    Oops wrong thread, oops wrong message board. Sorry I though I was on the “Young Frankenstein” message board

  63. Radsay says:

    Starbuck can’t be dead! I think she will return ala Gandalf:

    Starbuck, that was what they used to call me.. I am Kara the white. I return to you now at the turn of the tides…

  64. Turk says:

    Jim,
    By far the best post on this thread…
    There should be a horse noise every time somebody says Caprica Six.

    ~Turk

  65. Moe says:

    Dating myself here but…

    70’s When MASH killed Col. Blake instead of sending him home.
    80’s Spock dying at the end of Wrath of Khan
    90’s Mark Green finally dying of his brain tumor (or if you want impact on the fans not the other characters, at least those with xx chromosomes, when George Clooney left the show.

    Spock is probably the best reference but if your GF isn’t into SciFi at all it might not help.

  66. Athenor says:

    Heh. =)

    See, that’s what I’ve been trying to convey the last 2 days. Most deus ex machina involves a contrived ending, seemingly out of no where. Kara’s death was NOT out of nowhere. She has escaped seeing death many times, far more than she should have. Her destiny has been foretold as far back as the first season (although I don’t think it was in the miniseries, but I don’t think they believed Earth was real then).

    If this came out of no where, unexplained, and irrational.. Then yes, I would be upset. But I’m not. I am happy with how they did it… NOW the challenge is to re-introduce her without it coming out of no where, unexplained, and irrationally.

  67. Browncoat Bryan says:

    Just because a character is dead, it doesn’t mean the character is gone. Perhaps RDM is pulling an Obi-Wan Kenobi on us.

    Us: You told us that Starbuck was dead. But she’s alive…
    RDM: What I said was true, from a certain point of view. The Starbuck that you knew died in the maelstrom. She surrendered to the call of the true Kara Thrace. So, you see, she’s like a catepillar that has transformed into a beautiful butterfly. Can we say that the catepillar is dead? No. So, I haven’t lied. (He then takes a swig from his scotch.)

    I’m with you Radsay, although listening to RDM’s podcast, I was pretty darn close (improving my language) to thinking Starbuck was completely dead. However, I like the Gandalf idea. “I used to be Starbuck the Frak-up. Now I’m Starbuck the WHITE!!!” (and Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas bow before her).

    I don’t think Starbuck is a Cylon. Again, that would be too easy and would introduce a cheese factor to the show. I’m also questioning the notion of the “Final Five”. What are the Final Five? Has anyone ever seen them? What if the Final Five are mystical beings who do traffic in between life and death, but are not machines or human, but spirit, outside the notion of “Human” and “Cylon”? What if the Cylons hijacked or made up the notion that there are five other models? Or, what if the five that D’Anna saw are NOT the Final Five, but something else. What if Starbuck has been recruited to become one of them.

    The idea that everything that has happened, including the symbol, was just to lead to Starbuck’s suicide doesn’t wash, and that’s it, just doesn’t wash. I think there’s something deeper. So, I will do the Sci-Fi thing…

    What do you think of Starbuck’s death?
    (a) She’s dead and that’s that
    (b) She’s a Final Five Cylon
    (c) She’s not dead but captured by the Cylons
    (d) She’s crossed over and has become more than human
    (e) She crossed over and is now selling Gaeta-style hair care products

    Text your response to 888-FRAK-YOU. The text message is 99 cents.

  68. Moe says:

    Probably just a production cost issue, but it always seemed strange that there are an uneven number of cylons. 4 males and 3 females. Makes me think that just maybe Leoben or Cavil is the one of these things not like the others.

  69. frank says:

    I see what your saying Moe, I thought Cavil always knew more than he was saying, now we have Leobon, I don’t know anymore

  70. frank says:

    Browncoat, I tried to call that number, it was a kitchen appliance repair company specializing in toasters. Just thought it would be easier to send you the 99 cents directly.

  71. The 13th Cylon says:

    I have another feeling that RDM/DE are going to have something weird in this storyline happen in the final minutes of the last episode of the season. It’s too tempting not to. In all the other season finale’s we’ve gotten multiple cliffhangers and the trial of Baltar isn’t going to be it, I don’t think. They typically like to leave us hanging on about 3 or 4 biggies.

  72. Cavatar says:

    I at first did not think that Starbuck was dead, dead; however after listening to the RDM podcast my thoughts have changed. We all seemed to agree that they would not start the new storylines and then kill her, but is that what they really did?

    The Anders story line that was thrown into our face at the beginning, but that was not a new storyline. It began at the start of season two. Her relationship with Lee Adama was also not new, yes it has evolved greatly over the three seasons but they were friends long before the attack. Now the “Eye of Jupiter” is new, but only a new twist. The Starbuck destiny has been with since the second half of season one. All they did was add more depth to it.

    I think that Starbuck might return far later with the destiny story line, in her exploration of what lies between life and death; at least sometime after the cliff hangers of season three are concluded in the beginning of season four.

    I also wanted to add that her being killed off with all these lose ends might have not have been in the style of every other television show, but that is just one of the reasons why BSG is the best out on TV. What RDM did was give an since or realism to her death, how often in real life do you have everything resolved before your demise. There is something to be said for reminding us all the issues she had unfinished in her life before it came to an end.

    I personally don’t think she ejected, all they were doing was showing us that she thought about it before changing her mind, when she said to Lee that she was ready. I sort of hope that she did eject and live, because I will miss Starbuck; she was one of my favorites in the new BSG and Starbuck was my childhood favorite character in the old BSG.

    Nothing’s the same anymore.
    Cavatar

  73. Stephen says:

    She’s not dead.

    Just as Lee saw her, we also got a glimpse of the heavy raider. The perspective was from Lee’s ship (previous shots were from Kara’s ship), which indicates it was not just Kara hallucinating it. She really was chasing a Cylon that was hiding in the clouds. She toyed with the eject handle.

    Ron may claim she is gone for good, but there is plenty of room for her to have ejected with her chute lost in the clouds (she was diving into the edge of a cloud when the explosion happened).

    The raider was there to capture her on Leo’s orders. She’ll wake up on a Cylon ship, perhaps with them pretending she woke up in goo. Leo will mess with her mind.

    Plenty of room for her to either be gone forever or for her to come back…

  74. Caboose says:

    Did anyone else notice that Lee saw the Raider the second time there in the clouds? Or am I just crazy, equally possible.

  75. Adml. Cain's Cabin Boy says:

    Was Starbuck was destined to die in a viper…

    Can we consider in the episode Scar was one of the first times her destiny truly began to call to her. You could almost make the argument that Kara was almost in the same place emotionally in Scar that she was in Maelstrom.

  76. Athena says:

    imho:

    goddess aurora statue? dawn of a new day? leads me to think that IF she’s coming back, she will be some sort of “new” character…child of the gods or what have you. there’s talk that she’s a new hybrid, since we never knew of her father. though she could just be a cylon (too easy). i’m going with the good ol’ fashioned immaculate conception.

    at the same time, like the goddess aurora at the stern of a ship, leading the proverbial miniature adama has been putting together (and since trashed), she could be the one to lead the way to earth. it’s at the bottom of the maelstrom/wormhole/image she has drawn.

    i hope she’s alive – falling through the maelstrom/wormhole to find herself on earth.

  77. ShinyFab says:

    Starbuck is dead. I’ve tried listening to RDM’s podcast, I thought about how they made her into a character people started to hate, I wanted to believe there was more to this special destiny thing……and there’s not. RDM wanted to just kill off Kara because it was (not really) new and a huge frak you to ‘conventional’ television. It was balls to the wall. But now I don’t know if they can pull it off. Aside from being pissed every single time RDM mis-pronounced her (& my) name (its not Car-a, its Care-a damnit), I was also very annoyed by he and Mrs Ron’s rather patronizing ‘stay with us Kara fans, we have more to story to tell’. I started leaning towards Kara dying once I thought about how it could change the dynamic, but I hadn’t taken into account the whole destiny thing. I thought RDM might actually have something more for Starbuck then learning to love death and wanting to be dead. For me, it was always Kara/Starbuck that I watched for. I loved her character and the way she was brought to life. She was messed up and a hell of a lot of fun to watch. But. She’s dead. Unless there is something to genuinely hook me in the next two eps and the first couple of next season, I may leave BSG. Yes, its just a show and I can’t believe I’m this annoyed about it. But I’m tired of being the viewer who loves a character who always ends up dying before their story is finished (need I say Serenity?). If Starbuck accepted death and there isn’t much more, I say her death was a character waste for one very good episode.

    And I think its E, Browncoat. But the mixer who answered my call said it would have to get back to me.

  78. The 13th Cylon says:

    ShinyFab, it’s interesting that you’ve mentioned what took place in Serenity. I won’t give away spoilers for unelightened folks, but I feel the same way for Kara and the characters in Serenity. I was, and still am, upset for their deaths but I think that shows how great the characters were. And like the deaths in Serenity, I think Kara’s death will enhance the story. I honestly thought that they were going to kill them all off once those characters in Serenity were killed off. I’m totally rambling here, but I’m confident that Kara’s death will help propel the story forward in the remaining episodes.

  79. john patrick says:

    Um, up above, Ray said the word “wormhole.”

    Maybe Starbuck is not dead. Maybe her destiny is finding a wormhole. Maybe she’s found her way to Earth.

  80. Jim says:

    The 13th Cylon – You put my thoughts perfectly into words!!!

    Sorta off topic, but have any of you seen “Stranger than Fiction”, a very good movie about a writer with writer’s block about killing her main character. A very interesting ending about who lives and dies and whether it makes story better or worse.

  81. Ryan says:

    Browncoat, it’s got to be A. (and i am willing to admit that maybe, just maybe it could be D.) But the raider wasn’t real. Lee never saw it. And if the pressure was enough to destroy her ship, she certainly wouldn’t survive it outside of the ship. And it is just way too obvious that she would be Final Five.

    But personally, I think RDM does take great pleasure in frakking with our minds. And if he were reading this blog right now, he would just be tickled away with all of the theories we are grasping at that allow starbuck to remian an active part of the story. Think of all of the tension that creates, that we are all just sitting around waiting for the moment she returns (except she never will). That’s why he did it.

  82. BK says:

    Moe mentioned the corners missing on the scrapbook…
    I don’t think this was a mistake. They have carefully cut the corners off of everything else. I think this was a signal that this wasn’t “normal” Caprica (or 12 colonies) style — and that it was either “Earth-related” or Cylon. And this somehow links to Starbuck’s “destiny.” Whatever it is.

  83. Browncoat Bryan says:

    The sad part is that I have a friend who just started watching BSG. She’s starting from the beginning (and hasn’t gotten to Season 3) and she said, “Oooo, I just LOVE Starbuck.”

    I gave her this look and started to snort.

    ShinyFab, I’m with you on the Serenity thing. Granted, I saw Serenity before I got Firefly (and adopted my moniker). So I didn’t really appreciate the deaths (one in particular) until after I saw the series and I’m pissed at Joss Whedon too.

    There’s a special hell for people who kill off good characters and don’t close their stories properly….

  84. Athenor says:

    You assume the story is closed off?

    Hey.. if we want to really get out there, the show could always go “twenty years later” and unveil Kara’s daughter…

    But somehow I doubt they’ll pull a Seaquest. Firing all the actors is tough on a show.

  85. Luc says:

    – Sorry about this repost from a previous thread but it seems to me more appropriate in this discussion…
    ————————————
    I hope that she will be back. It would be great if she would come back in a dramatic fashion when we expect it the least.

    Maybe she was “pimped” into a part-Cylon as part of a genetical experiment when she stayed at that hospital on Caprica and they now have a couple of spare bodies on a resurrection ship waiting for her demise. Not improbable since Cylon anatomy is supposedly very close to human. They wanted her because she is predited to lead the way to Earth. But she would ultimatly foil them. That would make for a plausible solution and some interesting drama over the fourth season. Imagine Apollo discovering that Kara is now working for the other team…

    Anyway, hope she comes back in some fashion other than head Starbuck or ghost Starbuck. I’ll still be watching the show, even without Starbuck I’m very entertained by it.

    Cheers!

  86. Lt. Slingshot says:

    This seemed appropriate. Personally I’m in denial 🙂

    Five Stages Of Grief

    1. Denial and Isolation.
    At first, we tend to deny the loss has taken place, and may withdraw from our usual social contacts. This stage may last a few moments, or longer.

    2. Anger.
    The grieving person may then be furious at the person who inflicted the hurt (even if she’s dead), or at the world, for letting it happen. He may be angry with himself for letting the event take place, even if, realistically, nothing could have stopped it.

    3. Bargaining.
    Now the grieving person may make bargains with God, asking, “If I do this, will you take away the loss?”

    4. Depression.
    The person feels numb, although anger and sadness may remain underneath.

    5. Acceptance.
    This is when the anger, sadness and mourning have tapered off. The person simply accepts the reality of the loss.

  87. Bfenby says:

    Okay. After hearing everything on her I’m now convinced. Kara’s a Hylon. a ‘Leoben’ is her daddy. She’ll be back. Season finale = Baltar meets Starbuck cosmic-style. 🙂

  88. CAGLeader says:

    I agree. She’s a hylon with her daddy being one of the F5. That’s how she gets the visions of the Eye of Jupiter as it’s passed down through her dad’s genetics. Her mother knew this about her father, hence knowing she has a destiny. She can’t be cylon as she has grown from a child and skin jobs don’t change. She’s alive as she had to have ejected, why else did RDM show the ejection handle, and they did show the cylon raider and Kara’s viper from Apollo’s point of view. The bright light right before her viper blew up had to be the ejection seat which fires to shoot the pilot out of the way of their craft. The raider then must have picked her up, for Kara to complete her destiny, what ever that may be. I also think one of the first scences with Helo in the bathroom talking about Hera’s dreams points to Kara being a hybrid. Everything in BSG has a reason for being there.

  89. 13th Cylon says:

    I think that had she ejected, Apollo would’ve seen it. It’s not like he wasn’t flying toward her ship when that happened. And plus, if that was the point at which a big ol’ metal ship could no longer take the pressure, wouldn’t the “point of no return” for a person be slightly higher up. And just because we saw the heavy raider doesn’t mean it was there. We see Six a lot of times from Gaius’ view without the sane characters seeing her. Well I guess, in a way, she is there. It all depends on your POV.

  90. Vix says:

    I honestly don’t think that Ron Moore would permanently kill off a character for no other reason than because he has the cajones to do so. All the talk of Kara’s destiny would then be moot and a waste of episode space.

    I subscribe to The 13th Cylon’s theory of the ship of lights and how this will figure into Kara’s destiny.

    Starbuck is dead but I do think she will be reborn as Aurora. A wonderful twist of fate that the supreme frak up would be so pivotal in humanity’s salvation.

  91. Athenor says:

    We have no evidence of Cylon aging one way or another, I want to state. I mean.. there has to be a reason they keep so many bodies in cold storage, as the ressurection ship showed us. It probably takes a while to grow them.

    The cylon is not the body. The cylon is the mind inside it. I’ve long held this theory, and it fits with my notions of the Final Five being bodyless cylons.

  92. The 13th Cylon says:

    Yay for my theory subscribers! Oh how wrong we will be. With all the theories we’ve tossed around in the past 4 days, I’m gonna get a good laugh when a few years from now we can look back and see how wrong we all were. lol

    Here’s a weird little cool thing I saw on another BSG site. It’s baby Hera’s mobile in the background. Not bears, which I eventually ripped off as a toddler from my mobile, but little Vipers and Raptors. How… cute. Start ’em young! After all, she’s apparantly going to be forced to do what her mother or father does. Boomer flies Raptors and Helo… is a thorn in Tigh’s side.
    http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/albums/bsg314_screencaps/bsgm314_438.JPG

  93. Writch says:

    I came up with the same conclusion that tanstaafl did:

    This story arch is a colossal mind-frak orchestrated by Leoben.

    Perhaps the Cylon(z) set Starbuck up to BELIEVE she’s (a) Cylon on a high-stakes gamble that she might be tricked into cooperating with
    them. As Audra pointed out in the podcast, either by hallucinogen or by theatre, the Cylon(z) tried to mentally and physically maneuver Starbuck into a situation where she was very “accident prone” and thus likely to provide an opportunity OUTSIDE the ship to frak-up and expose herself for capture. Mission accomplished, right?

    ONCE THEY ACCOMPLISHED HER CAPTURE (unconscious), stick her in the goo-bath and revive her. BAM! The heroine wakes up surrounded by the familiar faces (from New Caprica) that are all-so apologetic and welcoming their “little-lost-Cylon.” Now, even though as far as I can remember there has been no precident set that BG crew know about goo – I’m sure they’ve been debriefed by Athena enough (esp. w.r.t. the Resurrection Ship mission) that they (including Starbuck) know about rebirth via goo-bath.

    The beauty of this possible storyline is that RDM can expose it piece-by-piece in a way – one episode or more – that keeps US guessing whether she is or is not Cylon – i.e. from Starbuck’s perspective like this last episode. That is, simply put-off the “rescue-retrieval/goo-resuscitation” scenes like the “Callie & Firing Squad” was. A whole charade like this is not beyond RDM and his tension building antics.

    Some points that lead me to this (most covered in the podcast and also pointed out by tanstaafl):
    1) Perhaps Leoben MAY HAVE pumped the Seer full of information (sort of as they say in show-biz, a “shill”)
    2) The significant focus of Starbuck grabbing the Ejection Lever
    3) POV from Apollo’s fighter showing the Raider AND his claim to have seen the Cylon

    Beyond this set-up, I don’t have theories as to how well Starbuck conforms this plan (as Retro posted in the Frak party: “Starbuck on a basestar… let the wackiness ensue.”).

    This also begs to repeat the old Human adage to the Cylon(z): Be careful what you wish for, because it may just happen.

    (DISCLAIMER: I have not listned to RDM cast on this ep).

  94. Athenor says:

    It helps to listen to RDM, and find out that the oracle was -supposed- to be the one whom D’anna met with on New Caprica. Timing conflicts, I believe, stopped that.

  95. Writch says:

    tanstaafl: I have bad news…

    I just listened to the RDM podcast and he mentioned in the scene where Starbuck passes out in the cockpit – alarms blaring – that there was consideration having her “coming-to” in a Cylon Heavy raider with Leoben and having the audience and Kara wonder if this was real or a dream…

    But due to production costs (reusing an existing set instead of building a new one), they went to the option with the alarm waking Kara in the apartment.

    Frak. It would have been such a tasty little “beat” as Ron refers to them.

    Good thing we didn’t put money on it, huh?

  96. ShinyFab says:

    It took some time to start thinking clearly, but I have some new wacky theories. I hope you all enjoy.
    Premise: All of this has happened before and it will happen again.
    For the sake of argument, let’s say when the 13th tribe took off for Earth they had someone who eventually led them to Earth after wandering in the space desert. The scriptures the Fleet have now are then giving Roslin&Adama clues and ‘signs’ on how to get to Earth. Now, how did these scriptures come about? Did somebody just make it up on one of the colonies? Or? What if some of the 13th Tribe came back. They helped write the scriptures, knew they would need another leader to Earth and quietly settled in to wait for the leader and the journey to Earth. The little clue left, the photo album w/o the corners cut off, may be a subtle difference between the 13th and the other tribes. Just as the Sagittarons have weird little quirks, so did the 13th. Socrata Thrace knew something about her daughter’s destiny. The design Kara kept drawing, her demands that Kara always be the best. I say either she knew because she may have been descended from some of the 13th or she may not have known she was but like Kara visited an oracle. IF Kara did go to the space between life & death, it could be interpreted as a dying leader. She lived all her life to embrace death and ended up in between life & death, living & dying at the same time (which, to get a little philosophical, is what we do anyway). At any rate, Socrata knew her daughter was supposed to be ready for something big. I don’t know if anyone else has had this theory because I was super-duper bad and haven’t read through all the thread yet. But there it is. Another Fabu theory. And no, I don’t think Kara is a cylon. It could have been interesting, but highly unlikely.

  97. Carol says:

    I was listening to a short voice interview with Katee on Cort and
    Fratboy, and she says that she didn’t even shoot the shot where
    her hand is hovering over/touching the ejection lever for maelstrom
    and wasn’t even sure where they came up with that. So the editors
    must have deliberately jimmied that up from cuttings from a previous
    show, eh?

  98. Saberhawk says:

    **copied and pasted from comment on Podcast 32 – more appropriate here**

    An intereesting bit of blog on wired along with subsiquent comments. I must warn you…the subsiquent comments do not stack up to the insights provided here by others. Truly, the best comments and analysis are here. Keep up the great speculation.

    http://blog.wired.com/tableofmalcontents/2007/03/starbuck_is_she.html

    I believe that after reading everyone’s thoughts and conjectures and contemplating…..I think the Hylon route is the most plausible all around. In fact, I believe that all of the F5 are Hylons atm. We do not know what Hylons are capable of so that allows a lot of latitude for the writers. It also allows all this hype to be generated about the show (free BSG publicity).

    I think (hope) the next three weeks may prove to be the best shows and story arc ever. I will hate the months off. I believe that we will get a “leaked” clue sometime in the fall when they begin filming the next (final possibly) season. If Katee shows up on the set – something WONDERFUL will be happening.

  99. rose says:

    I don’t think the show is better off without Starbuck for one major reason – she brought a real passion and energy to the show. No one else has that. I’m not interested in the show without that. I guess I went through the five stages of grief pretty fast! I’ve found another Sunday evening thing to do. Bye show and everyone here! You are all nice people and I hope you enjoy the remaining people on the show, Baltar’s trial, etc.

  100. aiko_aiko says:

    Slingshot, thank you for the stages of grief. I am in denial and isolation for sure.

    This has really hit me hard… I can’t listen to RDMs nor the Galatica Watercooler podcasts, I have removed my Starbuck desktop, and I am in a funk. Frak! What were they thinking??? I don’t know if I can keep watching this frakin’ show….

  101. Lt. Slingshot says:

    I’m with all y’all feeling the sting and the loss. I’ve looked for signs and clues that this may be something more than what we’ve seen on the screen. I am of the feeling that there is a lot more to the Starbuck story but there’s no chance of seeing it till next season. Even though he said it on his cast, I seriously can’t believe RDM killed her off just because it would shock us. There has to be more than that. (denial kicking in again) I have no evidence, only interpretation that can be argued with an opposing viewpoint until something happens on screen or the show ends. The best thing I can point to is the season three gag reel where Katee says two things.

    “…and I die. You’ll get to see the way I die, that’ll be cool”

    So those who need some hope and aren’t afraid this could be a real spoiler check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdmo_KCsutI at the 2:45 mark It’s all I have the hope I have left and could make for a good turn in the story as MANY have speculated.

    Slingshot out

  102. Elspeth says:

    Rose – Oh come on! We all thought it was crazy when they landed on New Caprica, started to colonize and the words “One Year Later” appeared. It really didn’t last long that way, and gave us so much more room and story.

    I totally agree with you that Starbuck is one the main reasons I watch. (In addition to the social/political commentary woven throughout the story – when is the last time we all contemplated the caste system??) But, I really don’t think she is really gone – anyway I am looking forward to seeing how the rest of the characters react to her “loss”. Maybe I am in the denial part, but I am also looking forward to seeing what Starbuck will return as!

  103. The 13th Cylon says:

    I think there’s a direct correlation between people being upset about Starbuck and the awesomeness of the show. If the show sucked, we wouldn’t care at all.

  104. Ryan says:

    At the end of RDM’s podcast he asked us to trust him, and to hang in there. And honestly, has he ever given us a reason not too? Everytime he has left us hanging, or challenged us as audience members he has earned my trust. And while I can understand people being upset about Starbucks “Death” i just can’t understand how that one event would be enough to undo all of the previously gained trust. I’m in it for the long haul, and despite my saddness at the lost of the character, i am more excited than ever to see what happens next.

  105. Its Boxey (O gods no) says:

    I reALLY hope shes really dead. a fake “death” would really suck hahaha

  106. aiko_aiko says:

    Ryan – Great point. I think the reason I am so upset is because I identify with Starbuck. While I am not a fighter pilot, a sl*t, a true believer nor aggressive in a take no bull kinda way, there is a part of me that WISHES I were, and I think in an alternate reality I could be that kind of person. That is why it is so hard. :((

    It is also sad to hear that Katee didn’t like the time spent in the vipers and seems to not relate to Starbuck much. That makes me think that the reason for Starbuck’s death might be more business-practical than good storytelling and that makes me even more sad.

  107. Armando says:

    I’m with Boxey (O gods no) here. I hope there’s no fake-out (like there was with Roslin’s cancer. No antigens my…). One of the things I love about this show is its realistic approach, even within the context of the suspended disbelief involved in science fiction. I’m also with Ryan: this show is too good for the death of one character, even Starbuck, to ruin it for me (even at its weakest, which the second half of this season has been, it’s still one of, if not THE best show on TV right now). Frankly, I don’t understand such an attachment to a fictional character. It’s a story, people!

    I also don’t get identifying with Starbuck (sorry, aiko). She was brash, out of control and self-destructive. Her end should not have come as a surprise. (Then again, my favorite character is probably Baltar, and he’s not someone I would want to identify with either.)

  108. Ray says:

    I read on the battlestar wiki that the original details of Rosalin’s recovery from cancer was due to cylon stem cells instead of the antigen stuff they changed it for. Maybe stem cells was too controversial, I don’t know. But I don’t think it would be a fake-out if Starbuck came back, I see more evidence that she will be coming back than not.

  109. Carol says:

    Armando, to get a sense for how those of us who are having a hard time with
    Starbucks ‘death’ feel, imagine that scene where your favorite character, Baltar,
    had attempted to hang himself had succeeded. It’s plausible that he would try, since he badly wanted to know if he was a Cylon. Imagine no one came to cut him down and give him mouth to mouth? He was just gone. The characters (and Head6, presumably), to be seen no more. No worries, there are other characters. It’s the same writing staff, production people, etc. There are other stories to follow. Just no more Baltar. If you can imagine that, and how you’d feel about it, then you can get somewhat of a sense for how Rose and others feel about the loss of Starbuck.

  110. Lt. Slingshot says:

    Armando it’s fine if you don’t understand how some people are feeling but show a little compassion. Logic isn’t going to win them over. A major motivating component for staying up late on a Sunday night has been removed for a lot of people and they aren’t happy about it. It’s not going to affect me or you but it has hurt them deeply. Since you are unlikely to convert them to your point of view, how about showing a little empathy or just letting them be? There are some great posters here that may be leaving and I’ll miss them but I can understand why they feel cheated if Starbuck was the predominate reason they watched the show.

  111. Zigdon says:

    I didn’t know Katee had a 6 year contract with BSG:

    “Sackhoff also said that while her schedule is booked with projects outside the SciFi Channel (including a pilot for NBC that she refused to give details about), she did sign a six year contract for ‘Battlestar Galactica’ so technically, she could be called back to the show at some point or another in the next three years. ”

    http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Sackhoff-Says-Starbuck-s-Fate-Has-Completely-Changed-3155.html

    Sounds like they didn’t tell her the plan either… Well, that, or she’s playing along. Haven’t listened to the interview yet.

  112. Zigdon says:

    Hmmm. The interview is interesting. Katee really sounds very careful as she’s picking her words. Saying things like “as far as I know she’s dead”, “starback as we know her is dead”… A lot of “as far as I know”s.

    At no point does she say she’s gone from the show. I am 95% she’ll be back now. Hooray!

  113. Mark Helm says:

    I don’t think Starbuck is dead. She will probably turn out to be a toaster but I don’t think Starbuck is the one Xeana saw.

  114. Ken says:

    Starbuck = Aurora

    I remember “Leoben” saying something like “you created the mandala, in the clouds. Now you are drawn to it.” Am I totally off my rocker or does this mean Starbuck actually created the cloud formation? You could also say she caused the candle wax to form the mandala on the floor. This gives more weight to the idea that Kara will be back as some sort of preter-natural being.

  115. suzanne says:

    i agree with the theory that starbuck’s death is definitely part of a ship of lights type story arc. her role is to somehow lead the fleet to earth, which is what she realizes before she tells lee to let her go. there was no heavy raider, just a vision on her part to get her to where she needs to go – the place between life and death. she bears a connnection to aurora: she is repeatedly called the “best pilot (ever)” in the episode, by lee, adama, the fleet’s flight school and her mother. she will bring the fleet a fresh start in its journey to earth.

    some random thoughts:
    socratic approach: ask questions, create doubt in people’s minds as to what is true, and often used for the examination of “concepts that seem to lack any concrete definition; e.g., the key moral concepts at the time, the virtues of piety, wisdom, temperance, courage, and justice.” (from wikipedia) i think that kara’s mother trying to give kara courage,which she did with her death, and perhaps with her abusive upbringing of kara.

    it looks like the word “yes” is scribbled in the center of the painting on the wall in kara’s apartment. she is supposed to descend into the center of the storm.

    the figurine of aurora bears a strong resemblance to the logo for the galactica (shown in the opening credits in season 1)

  116. Uri says:

    It seems like BSG is walking the path of the mythical Babylon 5.

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