March 5, 2007
GWC Podcast #32
Wow. “Maelstrom” will easily go down as the most significant BSG episode since the miniseries. Highlights: We weigh creepy Leoben vs. non-creepy non-Leoben, (most importantly) run down all the Starbuck possibilities, briefly discuss Lee’s role in the upcoming Baltar trial, and debut Audra’s first outro music.
Galactic Watercooler 
Modern Geek 
Save Eureka 
Eff This Week 
FitSmart
I agree with Audra, I think Starbuck is a Hylon, too. Do you think another version of Leoben from the first Cylon War could have been her father? That would certainly explain the version of Leoben that was with her in those visions and how he seemed to be kind of “fatherly” to her. Maybe that also explains the reason why the Leoben model has such an affinity to her and her destiny.
Audra, I LOVED your musical outtro! THANK YOU!!
Great Podcast guys, I am totally in agreement about the bonus scenes needing to go and they need to bring back the long trailer.
For the Star Trek references, it was a Commander Maddox who wanted use Data to try and duplicate the positronic brain Dr Soong created. The woman was a JAG Captain. It was also season two.
For Starbuck, I vote that she is some sort of Cylon or Hylon. I don’t think she ejected and that they are doing a repeat of the first season episode.
I will go with a trail, but not a jury; perhaps a panel of judges. I also vote that Baltar gets off. I do agree that the Admiral will be pissed that Lee is going to defend Baltar.
Cavatar
BEST EPISODE evER DIE STAR
BUCK
DIE *does im ahppy that starbucks dead dance*
o yes and i dug you guys
Well Boxey, were I am not going to cheer the death of Starbuck; I will say that a move like this does a lot for drama. Like I said in the Frack Party however, nothings the same anymore.
I have not listened to the cast yet, but I did want to comment that this was by FAR the best episode this season and was true to what we have come to expect from BSG. What a refreshing relief after the last three weeks.
Great cast. I’ve listened to about 20 minutes of it so far, including the awesome outro, and when the outro ended I felt like there should have been some uproarious applause bursting in with a nice slow fade out. You should make a full length version and post it up on the site. 😉
great outro. Why y’all hating on Dee. LOL. Guess it’s because it rhymes but hey, whateva. Long as a get to see that fine little booty a few more times before the series ends. By the way I caught the actress that plays Dualla in a scene in that Aaliyah/Jet Li movie from a few years back. She was looking hot with some thick, long braids and another character was oogling over her arse.
What’s this a out a movie? That would be the best thing since my anticipation for the TNG movies.
Boom: Definitely not hating on Dee — we’re Dee fans from way back as you can hear on previous ‘casts. The reference in the song was from Starbuck’s view.
Hey–what’s up with the Starbuck scrapbook–no clipped corners!
Hylon–absolutely a Hylon, but that doesn’t not make her a final five. To make the whole “This has a happened before” thing work, you have to have some entities that exist out of that loop. Those entities are the final five. Starbuck might be one of em.
This is also the first real taste we get of the first cylon wars. Suddenly, I really want to see that other series RDM was pitching. Was it “Caprica” that was supposed to look at the Adamas in the time leading up to the first Cylon Wars?
Starbuck isn’t gone forever, but I don’t think we’ll see her in a viper ever again.
Still listening to the ‘cast, but wanted to comment about the ejection lever – I think they bothered to show it to us to indicate she was considering saving her life – ejecting and letting S&R mission to retrieve her. But eventually she decided to go through with the whole thing.
Were you guys saying you thought Lee will be on the defense? I didn’t get that from the trailer – I just saw it the once after the show, so I was still rattled, but it seemed that Lee wanted to be the prosecutor, and that Adama was trying to talk him out of it.
Great cast and awesome out-tro. Such creativity! You should definitely go for a full length version.
I think that episode might deserve another cast (if you guys are up for it of course) before we get all bogged down in this trial mumbo-jumbo. This one deserves some deeper analysis.
For a minute let’s assume that Starbuck is (I refuse to use the past tense) some sort of Cylon/Hylon/non-human with an important destiny. I think that would go a long way in explaining a lot of this episode, including Hera’s similar dreams, Starbuck’s projections, and even her mother’s actions. If her mother knew that Kara was special (first Hylon, etc) or maybe that she would become mankind’s only hope then she might know that Starbuck needed that kind of horrific childhood to prepare herself. I would venture a guess that most great warriors didn’t have the best of childhoods. And if we could see 20 years into the Galactica future, wouldn’t we all be disillusioned if Hera turned out to be just ordinary? Her mother might have done what she had to do, and it might have been almost as painful for her mother to act that way as it was for Starbuck to be treated that way. Seeing her mother on her deathbed with that folder showed us how sad she was and how much she loved Kara. If she’d done what most parents try and showered her daughter with love and we ended up with a well-adjusted happy-go-lucky Starbuck, then there’s no way that she would have made it as far as she has. Her destiny wouldn’t have been fulfilled and there’s no telling what repercussions that might have caused.
On the other hand, if Starbuck is only human and wasn’t going crazy, that goes a long way towards supporting the (albeit flimsy) evidence that the heavy raider was real. The hole in the cockpit and this shot of the heavy raider and Starbuck seen from Apollo’s perspective supports that. But more interestingly if the heavy raider was real, could it have been Leoben piloting Starbuck to her destiny? If not, where the heck are the Cylons? A couple episodes ago it was 49 days without any sightings. Did Adama’s trigger happy episode with the nuke scare them that much?
Wow, what an episode!
As for Starbuck, my theory is she is a Hylon AND a Final Five. Also, I think that makes Starbuck the embodiment of Aurora. (This goes with my theory that Hera/Isis is also a god.) The oracle said “It’s yours†when she picked up the figurine. I think she meant that literally was hers. She will be back as the god of rebirth. Too cool!
I think the lesson from her mother was that Death, (or any other negative thing) is made worse by trying to run away from it. You saw how happy she was when she got a second chance to see her mother. Once you can face it, it isn’t so bad. For some people it is a welcome thing after a long life. Either way, it is inevitable; you can’t ever succeed in running from it.
Starbuck is no cylon people she is the Messiah… “The Sleeper has awoken.”
~Turk
I just finished the podcast and heard the outro. Great song choice and vocals. Go Audra! You rock!
I have not listened to the podcast yet…but did anyone notice that the body count did not go down for thisweek meaning that either Starbuck is not dead or she is either a cylon or a hylon?
Does anyone remember what happened to starbuck on the original series? I have a vague recollection of Statbuck dieing and Apollo being taken by aliens/angels to to some place with a totally white decor (heaven?) where Apollo brings Starbuck back from the dead.
Mack,
You are dead on, in the origional starbuck was “the chosen one” he was stranded on a planet made friends with a cylon and then was given a child by a higher bieng. Which he placed in his escape pod and sent back to the fleet. He was the chosen one because he was willing to give his life to save the child. The child went on to become some type of oracle advising the fleet.
I will comment again later, but I just do not see RDM and crew taking this show into the realm of angels/heaven speculation and how to deal with all those ramifications.
They seem to be deadset on keeping the series as real as possible and telling real drama in a different (sci-fi) setting.
So, I believe that you have to kiss Starbuck goodbye unless they pull some wild bait and switch. The character (actor) may in fact return (ala Boomer/Athena) as a Cylon/Hylon. The most plausable explanation seems to point in a final 5 direction for now. The writers and RDM, I’m sure, have something else up there sleve. Iw owuld be just like them to film a “wake in goo” scene for Starbuck (as they did for Baltar) and release that as a teaser during the off season.
Of course, Starbuck could actually be sleeping on New Caprica in the arms of Anders and this whole season could be a dream – more like Bobby Ewing instead of JR……Wouldn’t that be a kick in the gut.
Hey all, great comments!
A word on the outro – It is my voice you hear (straining and wavering, hehe) but Chuck really put this thing together. He and I played the instruments and Chuck handled the audio.
The idea was originally that of the 13th Cylon, who got us hooked on doing a “cover” of K.T. Tunstall’s “Suddenly I See” with BSG lyrics.
We had fun doing it. Glad you like it!
Don’t forget, guys, that Apollo caught a glimpse of the bogey right before Starbuck’s Viper exploded – he announced it over the wireless and went weapons hot. So, the theory that Starbuck ejected & was picked up by the Cylon Heavy Raider takes on a little more credence.
I am very sad, though, that my tv-girlfriend (the lady that I’ve had a crush on for three years) died in an explosion…
As one of the major supporters of the final 5 theory, I’ll be collecting my thoughts.
I will say this now:
“A DYING LEADER WILL LEAD THE 12 TRIBES TO EARTH. EVERYTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE, WILL HAPPEN AGAIN.”
During the comming 9 months with no Galactica, you guys should do some karaoke 🙂
The comment that Darein GA mentioned in passing about Starbuck’s scrapbook not having clipped corners goes toward my theory that she’ll be the one to actually find Earth….maybe she’s one of us (decended from Earth) I don’t think we’ve seen the last of her, but she’ll never be the same, and I’ll be shocked if they do something so obvious as make her a Cylon/Final Five, whatever.
Keep in mind that we, as nerds, may see the Final 5 plot… But the average viewer might not.
HOLY SHIT.
It just hit me.
Kara’s been dodging death since the Eye of Jupiter. She crashed on the planet and got out thanks to Lee.. She should’ve died with Scar… (but I think that is unrelated)…
Jupiter is the Roman name for Zeus.
The Eye of Jupiter could refer to The “apple” of your eye.. a term of endearment about children.
Zeus had many children in Greek mythology. The two that have been referenced in the show are Apollo and Artemis. Artemis has been linked in this ep to Starbuck, who Adama has referred to as a daughter before.
“The Eye of Jupiter will lead to Earth.”
The eye of Jupiter will be revealed to those standing in the temple.
Starbuck never made it to the temple. When she saw it, however, things started changing.
Something was revealed to D’anna upon dying in the temple, something she apologized for.
The eye isn’t the supernova. The eye was meant to kill Kara, to bring her to the next step. It was delayed.. so they contrived another method of passage, the maelstrom (which almost exactly duplicated the supernova).
A dying leader will show them the way…
She has been dying of alcoholism, of self-regret, of fear. Her mother had cancer.
Kara will be back. The signs have been there since season 1.
Saberhawk, I completely agree. Bringing this show into the realm of fantasy just wouldn’t fly. That might just kill it for me and I won’t believe it. It wouldn’t feel real anymore.
Audra! Your outdro is fabulous! Good job!
I’m with Turk. Starbuck is so much more than human, hylon, cylon… There is religious significance here. A figure that will lead all to a one God. The cylons are trying to help her do that.
can I get a link to just the music by itself?!
With all that was going on in the episode, did anyone else notice that Helo was back in the CIC?
He was? I didn’t see him. I noticed Dee wasn’t acting as comm officer, though. She had on a better uniform, and had a clipboard.
Has anyone seen Gaeta lately?
that outro song is awesome!! I want it for my Myspace page!!!
I’m with you Saberhawk on the new BSG staying on a less mystical and more sci-fi track.
My pet theory is that the you can look at BSG Classic as being the mythologized version of the events in the New BSG. As if the survivors of the rag tag fleet and their decedents passed the story down generation after generation until all the grey areas and ambiguities of the events washed out of the story leaving behind the sort of black-hat/white-hat version that was portrayed in BSG Classic. So, for example, the Pegasus commander, Cain, was more militaristic than Adama in both versions of BSG but all the other details were very different (including which commander was the superior officer and which one insubordinately violated orders) If this pet theory is true then we’ll see Starbuck come back, but not necessarily through a miraculous resurrection. In any case, Starbuck’s death is a plot point which both BSG Classic and the New BSG have in common.
Incidentally, if my pet theory is correct, we might expect to find a human-inhabited world other than Earth before the series ends.
I expect to find an offshoot colony as well, believe it or not.
The show has never dipped below 40k survivors. Hell, about the time they approached 47k, they introduced the survivors on the Pegagus, and the survivors on New Caprica.
And hey.. if Homeworld pulled it off with the Kadeshi, then BSG can.
O_O
I’m listening to Dirty Hands’ podcast…
Remember what brought about the death threat? Kara wanted to do a non-CAP flight.
I think there are other references to this — Kara was going out flying on her own, non-essential missions. She was going out into space for no reason?
Funny that you bring up the Hera thing. Did anyone else think Hera’s a littple young to be going to a shrink? Can she even speak? lol
And CRAAAP! Does anyone else say it that way after they say it the regular way? I’ve been guilty of that lately. I’ll say like “Oh crap!… CRAAP!!”
And don’t forget that we also have the Earth thing along with the previously mentioned Baltar trial and future of Starbuck. I’m putting my money on Racetrack. Racetrack’s gotta eat!
Hera should be approaching about 1 year old, and should be learning to talk any time now.
There are such things as child psychologists, even for babies that young. And perhaps Doc Cottle just wants to make sure her entire growth and development are studied.
Eh, I stand corrected. I don’t claim to know much about rugrats. I do know that Hera has the ability to cry without opening her mouth or looking upset. lol
Actually, I take that back. Hera should be almost 2.
She was born before the Cloud 9 incident, or right in that timeframe. the occupation started 1 year later, and lasted 3-4 months. 2 months then passed to the Eye of Jupiter, and they’ve had 2 months (at least, Maelstrom didn’t have any time markers) of no cylon contact after that. So yeah… Hera should be about 2.
RDM’s podcast for 317 just popped up…
Didn’t we have 3 promises for this season? One will die, one will be a cylon and one will find Earth? Well at this point I think Starbuck could arguably be either one of those three. But as I totally love Starbuck, I’m going to stay in complete denial about the first one. She’s not dead. She’s not. While I think it’s possible she’s a cylon (or hylon), if her father was a cylon then he would have had to travel back in time to concieve her (Terminator all the way) because there were no human-looking cylons back in the first wars. As time travel doesn’t seem to fit in I’m going to forget about that one too. Which leaves me conveniently with ‘she finds Earth’. Allow me to elaborate:
Both Leoben and Kara’s mother believed she had a special destiny to fulfill, which has definitely not been fulfilled so far. Leoben told her she was drawn to the eye, that it lead to the ‘other side’. Granted this is a common phrase concerning death/afterlife, I’m going to assume it’s something different. Add to this the fact that (as posted above), we saw the heavy raider from Lee’s point of view, I think it has to be real and it was leading Starbuck deeper into the storm on purpose. The only conclusion that I can draw from all this is that the storm was some kind of wormhole or portal that will somehow get her closer to Earth. She’s already played her part in retrieving the Arrow of Apollo, I think she still has more to accomplish.
There is of course evidence that Starbuck’s actually just dead. Her old ‘what do you hear?’ routine with Adama was a marker back to the miniseries, plus the old favourite ‘good hunting’, which I haven’t heard in ages, were possibily some kind of closure if it really was her time to go. Plus if you accept her arc to be accepting death, because she’s been unable to accept it since she found out her mother had cancer, and she came full circle with that too, accepting it just before her viper exploded. So it is possible that she just died…. But she didn’t.
I don’t think this would have been a big enough ending for her anyway. Kat got a pretty heroic sending off in the Passage, Starbuck would deserve to sacrifice her life to save the Galactica at least if she had to go out that way. If she really just died then it wasn’t for any good reason, she just descended into the storm and exploded, hardly fitting for the best damn viper jock in the fleet.
As sure as I know this is the best tv show I’ve ever watched develop, I know this. We haven’t seen the last of Starbuck, not yet. And I hope to the gods that this isn’t the last we’ll hear of Audra’s singing. Great outro, please keep them coming.
I’m only 10 minutes into the podcast.. and I’m getting.. a finality… in the way he’s talking. =/
Hey great outtro!
There is no way Starbuck is actually dead – as in gone from the series. Otherwise her great destiny is to what? Die!?! I don’t think we’ll see any more of her this season, but there have got to be a few more things that happen. At very least We need to see her pict up on the wall. There has to be no way Apollo doesn’t put her next to Kat.
I really agree that the whole eject lever was too pointed to ignore. I think she pulled it. Maybe she rode the heavy raider through the storm. (Aside: Why did the explosion actually look like a really nice firework instead of a random explosion? Thought the special effects a little weird)
There really was a heavy raider at least the second time. Apollo saw it too. At first I thought that maybe she could see something that was there that others couldn’t – leading me to believe she did have some sort of special ablity, but with Lee seeing it as well, I just don’t know.
Speaking of which, at first I thought it strange that she should start seeing things, then I realized that everyone else in the show does – Adama for example, so nightmares etc. are not so unusual. I don’t think many believe Adama is a good candidate for cylonhood. But I did find it odd that they put mention of Starbuck’s nightmares in the same place as Hera’s.
Did anyone else think that somehow the Maelstrom was a worm hole to Earth? We have seen that for the first map with the constellations and for the temple. Characters seem to be transported to a different place more that just seeing projections. And if they were projections, the only others with that kind of skill were the cylons. So, maybe the ancestors were cylons, as “it has happened before”.
I don’t know about that, Ray. Considering the way the BSG world works, it wouldn’t be out of the question that Starbuck just DIED. I mean, a senseless, meaningless, inglorious death, just like what’s-his-name (the pilot that died before Starbuck started training the new nuggets). It would be nice if she went out with a bang, sacrificing her life to save the fleet or find Easrth or whathaveyou… but it’s equally possible that she died a death similar to the life she lead – full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Hey, that’s what you get for being a slow typist. By the time you finish typing everyone has gone and posted more before you…
So Ray, I like the way you explained the wormhole. It aligns with exactly what I was thinking, but much more coherent. To me the life/death option and Starbuck being led in seems the most probable with the whole Galactica mythology/religious system to me.
GWC: You should start playing a deleted scene at the end of the podcast…
Season 4: The return of starbuck
And as for RDM’s poscast: I wont spoil it but the bit about the model ship is outragious…
Ray, I definitely agreee that the story of Starbuck isn’t over. She has a destiny and I don’t think it was to die in a storm. That would be a pretty crappy destiny. We haven’t heard the last from Kara.
And about the DVD movie, I’d say it’s pretty much certain. There’s plenty of places where you can read about it, including Sci Fi’s Adam Stotsky saying that it was going to happen and then kind of going back on it a little bit, saying that it wasn’t official yet.
And Audra, you mentioned how sweet a poster would be, well I’ve gotten a few of them framed and they look great. The super huge versions of Player/Pawn and Defiant/Defied look incredible. And they’re not cheap WalMart type posters, they’re thick suckers that Sci Fi has used for their parties and whatnot. http://amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_1/104-6283395-6075966?ie=UTF8&keywords=battlestar%20galactica&rh=n%3A1055398%2Ck%3Abattlestar%20galactica&page=1
lmao!! I just heard the ending! Oh my God! That’s awesome!
My personal theory. Starbuck is one of the final 5. The heavy raider was actually there and it’s purpose was to be a portable resurrection ship so that Starbuck could download after her viper exploded.
Audra!
You’ve got to put a warning label on that outtro. It’s very catchy. Now I have head music while my mind keeps seeing Starbuck bobbing and doing a little wave dance as if I was caught in a Scrubs musical.
viper Hirearchy
Tigh
Adama
Starbuck
Apallo
Kat
Racetrack
Hotdog
Boxey
Daggitt
Robot Daggitt
Dee
Geta
Helo
ROFLMAO!!
I just finished listening to the RDM commentary for this episode. (Starbuck is definately dead) Turns out that the model ship Adama destroys in the last scene of the episode was never in the script. It awas a complete impromptu moment. Nobody had bothered to tell Edward James Olmos that the ship was not a prop, but a genuine museum quality antique being rented by the studio and was worth several hundred thousand dollars.
Starbucks papa
We know Starbuck mother served during the first cylon war, and that she recieved a metal.
One theory I made up in my mind is maybe the mother was a POW who escaped, thats how she got the metal. A few months later, she finds out she’s pregnant, knows that she wasn’t with any men. Starbuck could be the result of the early cylon DNA experiments. The person she knew as her father could be one of her mother’s close friends (set up by mommy so Starbuck would feel normal), or maybe she did marry someone (do we know if her ‘parents’ were married?).
But, personally I think Starbuck is human. I think head Balter, head 6, and non-psychotic Leoben are some type of guides. Both human and cylons are being influenced by these guides.
Are the guides the final 5?
WOW – Starbuck is dead, dead, dead according to RDM’s cast. As always, he could be pulling a fast one, but it did not seem like it on his cast. Still – one of the best episodes ever. Dissapointing to a degree because I liked Katie and the character ….. guess we will be seeing more of Racetrack or Seelix.
I dunno. The way RDM talked about it, “starbuck” was dead.. but there was something in his voice… He didn’t sound as sad as he should’ve.
Oh… and we now know why there was next to no CGI for the last 3-4 eps… frakkin’ model.
What I got from RDM’s podcast was that Starbuck was NOT dead forever. But it took some convincing with Katie to get her to buy into the idea, which she did. That tells me she just gets the rest of the season off.
Let me whine for a bit to make up for Lee’s lack of it: I hate hearing Seelix! It throws me off since we already have a Felix Gaeta. Seelix and Felix. Ugh, that’s so sappy it makes me ill.
Well here’s the rub. They now need to keep Starbuck a secret, if she comes back for future seasons. That means the following:
1) None of the cast knows, except mabye Katie.
2) She has to keep her calendar clear, inconspicuously. She is going to get HAMMERED for job opportunities starting today… and if she is still on the show, she can’t accept those.
3) Something needs to be worked out with the actors unions, whom I know aren’t on the happiest terms with BSG ATM.
Logically, technically, real-world wise.. This move is FAR more ballsy than “one year later,” if things go the way everyone is predicting. and if it doesn’t work out.. hey, it’s a closed plot, no?
First, if you ever want to change the name of your podcast, I recommend “Best Damned Galactica Podcast” or simply BDGP. I really don’t know which I look forward to more the show or your podcast the following day. And Audra, great outro…
Now let’s suppose the Heavy raider was real…Apollo did see both Starbuck and the Raider… what if…the explosion was Starbuck taking out the Raider…a simple sleight of hand if it were…
It’s been said the planet was a gas giant… I don’t recall a specific reference to it, just a treknobable reference to a type of radiation messing up the Dradis and it making for a great hiding spot for refueling purposes…and that the atmospheric pressure would crush her ship… but was that all simple misdirection, that it would have crushed a pressurized craft, but one compromised with the hole in the cockpit would equalize the pressure…perhaps with enough time to climb out only to go adrift…
I have to agree with others that to keep Katie “off the market” for the sake of the mystery if in fact it was Starbuck’s end would be asking a lot of her given the recognition she’s earned with this role. I suspect that in the final moments of the last episode, we see hints that will fuel the debate over the next 10 months, it simply can’t just be Baltar’s trial to hold us captive for the next 310 days…
I’m done rambling… just my 2¢
After listening to RDM’s podcast it does seem like Starbuck is definately dead, but that she will be back. He says something like, “All you Starbuck fans, don’t give up on the show we still have plenty more story to tell.” Take that for what you will.
13th: If it makes you feel any better, Seelix’s name throws me off too. Maybe now that she’s a pilot, they will give her a call sign to help us out.
I chuckled when Audra said we’ll all be checking “Aurora” on Wiki, and I wanted to pass on something that might get missed on a direct search. Aurora as a girl’s name translates in French to “Aurore”, and there is an unfortunate story linked to the name in the Quebec province. Aurore Gagnon was a young child raised by her uncaring father and his second wife. The abuse Aurore suffered was unbelievable and unrelenting, to the point that she died of her injuries at age eleven. The surrounding community lived in denial that it was happening until it was too late. Aurore Gagnon has become a symbol of a morally pure child that was martyred by those she loved; her story has become the subject of many books and a few movies. What does this have to do with anything? Well, Starbuck was abused as a young girl, primarily by her mother figure. Also, much of BSG is filmed in Canada, so the story might have made it to the writers. When deciding on a new mythological name to be linked to the Starbuck character, Aurora would provide multiple levels of tie-in.
That’s all!
LOL, never thought that I would read a reference to “Aurore l’enfant Martyre” on a board for Battlestar Galactica! I’m from the province of Quebec. You are correct in your analogy.
Anyway, I just also listened to the RDM podcast and what I got from it was that Starbuck was indeed dead. Not sure he she will be back in some capacity. Is Katie gets hired elsewhere in the meanwhile, that’s it for her character. I cannot image them casting someone else for the role. That is one ballsy move for a series. RDM’s podcast is very telling and interesting this week, a good listen.
Cheers!
Here’s my question. I don’t know if this has been discussed but I’m wondering if we have any hard data on the chronology of the Humlon cylons.
we know that until the mini-series or early on in the first season the humans were unaware of the cylon’s taking human form.
so theoretically, couldn’t leobens and sixes et. al, have been running around picking up intel and just generally wreaking havoc? couldn’t a leoben, self-professed prophet that he is, have had some kind of knowledge of starbuck before she even existed? maybe he knew of her previous role in the cycle of time and was searching for her before she was even born. on a larger scale, could he possibly have had something to do with giving socrata the proverbial heads-up on the “special destiny”?
Athenor, very insightful as usual, I don’t need to recap, you nailed it.
Stephanie, thanks for your research, I wouldn’t have, but quite interesting considering where they film.
I guess Adama will will have to do a couple free shows, to help pay for the ship.
As far as Katee doing other jobs, so far this season we have seen six doing supernatural, Apollo was on some CBS show, can’t remember which, and I am sure that we will see more especially since there is such a LONG layoff this year. So I wouldn’t be too concerned about not seeing Katee again, even if it is just as a flashback or something.
Forgot to mention, GWC crew great podcast, great outro, just goes to show once again that you guys are the top of the heap podcast!!
Wow, speaking of all this losing Starbuck stuff, I’m still hoping that Ellen Tigh was indeed a Cylon. She was such a great character and her intro into the series is in my all time favorite episode- “Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down”. Funny thing is about a week after she was killed off, my mom had it on Lifetime and there was a movie starring Kate Vernon and Kevin Sorbo. It was quite funny seeing BSG people not in the BSG universe. I think RDM and DE are out to kill all the great and wild blonde women of the show.
Yeah, totally double posting, but an article on the episode on the Chicago Tribune site said that the media already got to see the last few episodes and that if you thought last night was big, just wait until the rest of the episodes and we get another mind blowing season finale. Also, I’m a happy camper since a lot of Tigh action was promised in the trial. That’s about all they’d really tell us as far as promo level spoilers go.
Alright, here it is… Balls to the wall, 100%, this is how I think it’s gonna play out. And I bet NO ONE here can find fault with this theory, if the writers take it that way.
The trial goes on. Things get heated. The fleet starts to fracture, alliances are drawn…
… Then the cylon attack. The fleet, in various states of disarray, are left in a bit of a lurch. It’s happened before.. but this time is much, MUCH worse as the cylon try to overcompensate for 3… and Leoben gets pissed as hell that his pet project is gone.
Then a voice is heard. A course of direction is taken. Lives are saved…. And the humans see another roadmap sign.
Then, throughout the 4th season.. it could play out one of two ways. The first is visions, snippets, reflections in mirrors.. Hints and proddings.. Kara pointing them the way. Small things at first, then bigger…
This could lead into the second way, or just continue… When get get Head Starbuck. Yes, that’s right, you heard me.. HEAD STARBUCK. Some character, emotionally fractured (or even more than one), starts getting guidance just like Baltar and Six do. At first they explain it away by talking about Baltar’s ramblings.. but when the direction proves right, and leads them towards home…
Then, sometime late in the season, a climactic battle… lives on the line, probably dogtown (I was right about the museum wing still being inoperable and being dogtown, BTW).. Someone blanks out, or bugs out… and you hear “I’m going in.” And Kara guides the pilot’s hands, saving the day, making a legend of the pilot.
Now.. they could play off this angle for a season or two.. And it would not interfere ONE IOTA with my theories about the final 5. Plus, it would leave open the window for Kara to return physically, one day.
Also, I don’t know if you guys noticed, but the series has been sitting on 41,400 for 2 eps now. I can see how that number won’t change through the season finale, as a reminder/tribute… 41,399…
BEST OUTRO |EVER
No. No! NOO!!!
Listening to RDM Podcast and it’s hitting me. It’s hitting me hard! Starbuck is dead! She’s dead! NOOO!!!!!
Yeah Joe, I got the same reaction. Damn that show gets under my skin!
It’s all the TV I follow along with “The Office”. I used to wonder what drove people to be such big fans of Star Trek. I think I’m turning into some kind of “Trekkie” for BSG! OH NO! I’m already weird enough…
Is there a word for people obsessed with BSG by the way?
I dare not make my obsession with this show public. I dare not come out of the airlock… 😉
If Starbuck’s a cylon, her mama might just be an implanted memory. Has anyone actually MET her mama?
Athenor, Right again,it would really be the best way to bring her back without copping out to the cheesy she ejected and was rescued by the cylons, or she is a cylon thing. I am thinking, and I hope you agree that they really should be careful about the spirituality angle, that they don’t make it too cheesy. But little hidden messages, or unexplained things occur all the time, and if done right, it could be awesome. Imagine, two vipers are out in combat, one gets blasted away, the other one is outmanned by the toasters, when suddenly another viper shows up to help, but the pilot doesn’t talk, the pilot just blasts the toasters away and flies away. When the original pilot gets back to Galactica he says who was that viper pilot I want to thank him/her? Chief responds “Noone else has launched, you were out there alone.” Am I too cheesy?
Can we ask the critical question here??? Is Katie Sackhoff still on contract with the show for the 4th season? Anyone know that?
Great podcast and equally terrific episode.
Unfortunately, “moving on” Starbuck’s character is probably the only thing they could do to progress to the rest of this season, and then season 4. She’s been on a downward spiral all season long, and how do you redeem such a character? Can’t be religion, she’s got that. Can’t be a man, she’s “got” 2 of those. She’s a wicked Viper pilot with all the fleet at her feet. So..she has to deal with her past suffering and be at peace. Turns out her final Leoben wasn’t Leoben at all – that to me is quite intriguing. Who was that almost bearded Leoben-like guy?
What I am waiting for is what Tigh says about losing her. While Adama broke his fantastic composure and lost it in grief, I want to see what the good Colonel and the dissident Baltar (and his Head Six) have to say about her demise. If either of those characters address it in the next episode, my whole head is going to be positively glued to my tv.
LOL, Just finished listening to RDM’s podcast. You have to hear it!!
That model being destroyed at the end was not a prop, and destroying it was not planned!!!
RDM says that this is the first chapter in the third and final act of the series. Maybe the series will be over after the 4th season? I think this lets them pull out all the stops for the series. Her death is suppose to propel them toward where they need to be going for the final arcs of the series.
I love the Outro!
Jim- I’ve heard David Eick recently say that the 4th season could very well be the last. According to Ask Ausiello at TVGuide.com, DE was talking about that, and later on in one of his articles, he said that word has it that we had better be hoping for 13 episodes. If the network adds and extra 9 episodes, to make the total 22 for the season, those will be to wrap it up. The great thing is that either way the show will get to finish the story and not just end on a cliffhanger like so many other shows have.
I don’t know if anyone posted this above, but Kara’s father has been mentioned before. He was a famous concert pianist! It’s in the original Starbuck’s apartment episode and RDM reminded us in the podcast.
Yeah, I’m just now getting to the GWC podcast.
Something just occurred to me – we don’t actually know that all the visions Kara saw of her mother were actually true, do we? I mean, for all we know, her mom died just as bitter and mad as she was when Kara left the apt, and maybe whatever’s pushing her destiny decided that THIS is what she needed to see to move her on. Similar to the oracle in The Matrix – doesn’t tell you what will be (or what was in this case), but what you need to hear.
The 13th Cylon – That sounds about right. I’m thinking that they (Universal/NBC) told RDM and DE that this is it. The ratings have not changed enough to let the series go beyond the 4th season. Hopefully there will be a 4th season and they can wrap things up. I’ve seem them kill Farscape after they told them it was going for two more seasons and then they only got one. Sure this series is alot better then that one but anything can happen.
Althenor, could you elaborate more on the difficulties between the actors union and BSG?
I’m sorry, it was the writer’s guild. If you hop over to Wikipedia and look up the webisodes, the writer’s guild is kind of pissed over them because they are considered “promotional,” and therefore don’t fall under the normal union laws. It might be minor, and studios and unions butt heads all the time. But it’s just interesting to note.
well, i have to respectfully disagree with Saberhawk .
i think the last 3 episodes have been quite good. Very good stories and insightful character development,especially a day in the life
i actually found the first 45 minutes of maelstrom to be extremely boring.
maybe because i don’t like the starbuck charater,more likely to do with the fact that i find katee sackhoff to be the weak link in the acting ensemble. so,i’m kind of glad to see her go. she was chewing so much scenery they barely had a ship left.
RE: Cavatar’s comments about things never being the same again. i don’t necessarily see that as a bad thing.i listened to ronald d moore’s podcast and he said that he feels that they are entering the third act of their overall story arc and there will be resolutions and such.
plus ,last years finale had 4 major revelations.
1baltar defeating rosyln for the presidency.
2brother cavll telling them that the cylons wanted peace
3. the settlements on new caprica
4. the cylons occupation of new caprica
any show that can successfully reinvent
a show to that degree can keep on course minus starbuck.
i have a lot of faith
in ronald d. moore as a showrunner and the quality of the writing and the story telling by his staff
So say we all, Sonicdave!
So, I’m making it through the podcast slowly, as usual, but I wanted to make one quick comment regarding the shot of Starbuck holding to the ejector. Even if she did change her mind and ejected from her viper, the planet she was on is a gas giant. That means it has no surface, which means she’s dead either way.
Unless she’s a Hylon, which is a theory with some merit.
She might just be dead, though. (See my post on Sean’s thread on Starbuck’s fate.)
Keep up the good work, guys! 🙂
So say we all
Hey, I listened to your pod cast and am almost done but you said she hallucinated the cylon raider but I think Apollo saw it to near the end when he sees Kara he sees the Raider. Now, I think that it is real because in that particular seen we are seeing it through Apollo’s point of view not Starbuck.
So my guess is the Raider was making Starbuck see these images to take her away from Galactica.
who heard the RDM podcast about the ship hehehe
Keep in mind, the podcasts are done RIGHT after the eps. We get to do a lot more evaluation and analysis after the fact.
Yeah, unless you’re getting your fix via iTunes, Athenor. In that case EVERYONE has more time to do analysis than you do…
Frakers.
BTW, suggestion. Set aside a separate “RDM ‘cast” discussion topic. I think a lot of us now (and especially those of us using Tivo or iTunes) are hitting BSG Episode–>GWC Frak Party–>GWC ‘cast–>GWC ‘cast discussion–>RDM ‘cast. Unfortunately, we get a lot of RDM ‘spoilers’ in here.
Well, I hate to say it, but we’re entering territory now where a “spoiler” style tag would be useful. But I don’t know if WordPress would allow it.
I wonder if spin-off podcasts are a possibility? I know I’d love to talk about this more (my posts match my mental processes), but I don’t want the GWC guys getting burnout from producing multiple shows a week, especially if they aren’t getting paid or sponsored. Yet I can’t get my fix in one-week increments either.
Ever wonder if RDM visits here?
too too too many clues to have really killed off starbuck … for christ sake .. the god of the new dawn? I love the show, but now I’m waiting for a lot of these scenes to be in a “previously on Battlestar” along with a deleted scene that explains everything to be in some future episode so I can understand what the frak happened in this episode.
This is “destiny?”
Flying into a storm on a gravity giant and getting squished? This is even worse than Tasha Yar getting slurped by the goo monster.
I suppose, on the face of it, a frakked up pilot dying a frakked up death makes sense, and I don’t have a problem with major characters dying on a show. If you only kill off red shirts, death becomes cheap and meaningless.
But what about the paintings? What about Leoben’s preditions? The seer’s channeling his predictions? This is too good a show to be this sloppy. There has to be a decent resolution of Starbuck’s destiny or RDM and I are done.
PS–What the HELL is up with iTunes not getting the podcast of the episode up until this afternoon????
Podcast, you mean RDM’s? I had that by monday evening.
And… decent resolution. You do realize that could come 3 seasons down the road, right? Just checking.. considering that’s been the style of the show up till now. =P
I agree with you storyknife and Athenor. Those posting that Starbuck is dead dead, yeah right. They wouldn’t go through the whole backstory about her mother, the painting, and this ‘destiny’ to just simply kill her off and never speek of her again. We’ll see her again, or at least the results of whatever it is she is doing next. Hopefully it will be before the final episode.
They land on Earth and discover that Starbuck did eject, fell asleep drifting in space, then woke up floating over Earth……sorry I had to.
I hear your concerns, Storyknife, but as Athenor points out, the show has a tendency to leave these things hanging until a resolution presents itself further down the line (heck, “Maelstrom” went all the way back to season one for some of the threads it tied up). The fact that the issue with the mandala-or whatever RDM calls it-/Eye of Jupiter was left unresolved was infuriating, to be sure, but it also leads me to agree with the Starbuck is not QUITE dead (I’m getting better! I think I’ll go for a walk!) camp. Mind you, I think she’s DEAD. Pushing up the daisies. Torn down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. She’s now an EX-Starbuck (I think I’m channeling the spirit of John Cleese today!). BUT…I think we will still see her again, somehow, because her death is obviously a matter of great importance to the fate of humanity.
On death and destiny: Kara’s destiny was, on a personal level, to face and conquer her fear of death (isn’t that ALL of our destinies in life, after all?). It seems to me that if her fate is, indeed, special and her death was necessary as a sacrifice to lead humanity to salvation (and I definitely got a messianic vibe from Starbuck towards the end…but not in a Mua’dib sense, alas), then her personal quest needed to be faced and undertaken in order for her special destiny to be accomplished.
One thing you said on the podcast, Chuck, has stayed with me: death is not beautiful. That line struck me too, although I’m not sure I completely disagree. Not ALL deaths are beautiful, certainly, but it seems that Kara’s mother was at least able to die with dignity on her own terms (she didn’t seek any medical help to try to stop the already metastasized cancer but faced her imminent demise with grit), which does, to me, have a kind of beauty. The fear of death is a very real part of the human condition (hence the success of religion, which in its most primal, basic sense-keep this in mind, its MOST BASIC sense; I’m not trying to bash religion entirely-is a coping mechanism for dealing with these fears) that we must all face, one way or another. Some of us face it succesfully, some of us don’t. I guess the only way to know for sure is to get to the end of the parade. To face death with courage and dignity is a hard, hard thing, I’m sure. The fact that Kara was able to do so is, in a way, enlightening on its own. That her death might eventually mean the salvation of humanity by leading them to earth would make her transcendent.
Sorry about the double post after an already long one, but what other show on TV leads to questions about life and death like this? I’m hard pressed to think of one.
I love the life/death questions, too, Armando, and not just of the individual but of the whole race.
Starbuck didn’t just die here, she committed suicide. She deliberately flew into the planetary storm which she’d test driven the day before, she intimately familiar with the point of no return in this storm. She knew her head was frakked and she flew anyway (and at Apollo’s instigation, too, and how is that going to play out?). I think command on Galactica had fallen into the habit of seeing Starbuck flying frakked and coming back anyway, and this time they didn’t recognize that this might be one flight too many. Although I would think Starbuck sitting under her viper for hours when she was supposed to have been on the wing (almost said in the air) might have been a tiny clue.
Okay, so far as it goes, but this death seems rushed to me, especially after everything we’ve watched Starbuck do on plain and simple faith, sometimes not even her own faith (going back after the arrow for the president for one thing). I like a little more method in my madness. That said, Athenor, you’re right about BSG payoffs, and I am willing to wait for this one. If it doesn’t come, I’m going to feel ripped off in a major way.
And I gotta say, I do not see Starbuck as a Cylon or as one of the Five. This whole Five storyline makes me uneasy anyway, getting a little too woowoo out for plain old hardheaded me. I like the idea of the humans and the Cylons eventually coming together as one race, biggerbetterfaster, but there is going to have to be some brisk writing to get around the Cylons’ original intent to wipe out their better half, if that’s what humanity is.
In re the podcast, I haven’t even listened to the Watercooler Maelstrom podcast yet as iTunes didn’t upload the episode Maelstrom until Tuesday afternoon and I didn’t get to see it until I carved 45 minutes out of last night. It was TORTURE not to read the posts. I’m glad I didn’t, though, because I was spoiler free for the episode, which I should have said right up front is powerful and haunting. Katee Sackoff is a marvelous actress, I’m looking forward to seeing her work in future.
It´s been a while since I post anything anywhere, but this is definitely the perfect time to do it. I love this podcast, and read almost every comment, but since I live in Colombia i have to see the episode by other means, i actually listen to the podcast the day after i watch the episode on my way to college.
Anyway, the episode was great and i agree with everyone, Katte can´t leave the show, I could understand her absence in the next 3 episodes because it´s not like she has appeared in every episode of every season, but she has to come back either in the last second of this year´s finale or in the first 45 minutes of the next season, next year, the show definitely needs her, and I couldn´t bear to watch it without her, the next 9 months are going to be interesting in seeing what RDM and company are going to decide to try to please the majority of the fanbase, and when it comes to the deaths of major characters every decision is tough, because:
a) they could bring her back with a crappy explanation , and it could ruin the show forever, making it incredibly cheesy (and i think the show has handled the deaths of important secondary characters with great respect, like for example Billy´s picture as a big reminder, the memorial hall, etc..)
b) they could leave her dead, the “24” approach, but since this show it´s not about one major character (i.e Jack Bauer) it could upset people who have seen the show with Starbuck all this time, and would by then (9 months) be in serious Starbuck withdrawal.
I really, really hope Starbuck survives, and i frankly don´t care how: be it Hylon, or Boomer type “mom and dad dying in mines, and other parents buying elephants when she became an officer” fake memories, or “Wow thank the gods i landed safely on that heavy raider and married Leoben on a private ceremony on a baseship” explanations. I needs me my Starbuck.
I will miss Starbuck…but this is the only episode that I think was better than “33”.
Cavatar
I at first did not think that Starbuck was dead, dead; however after listening to the RDM podcast my thoughts have changed. We all seemed to agree that they would not start the new storylines and then kill her, but is that what they really did?
The Anders story line that was thrown into our face at the beginning, but that was not a new storyline. It began at the start of season two. Her relationship with Lee Adama was also not new, yes it has evolved greatly over the three seasons but they were friends long before the attack. Now the “Eye of Jupiter†is new, but only a new twist. The Starbuck destiny has been with since the second half of season one. All they did was add more depth to it.
I think that Starbuck might return far later with the destiny story line, in her exploration of what lies between life and death; at least sometime after the cliff hangers of season three are concluded in the beginning of season four.
I also wanted to add that her being killed off with all these lose ends might have not have been in the style of every other television show, but that is just one of the reasons why BSG is the best out on TV. What RDM did was give an since or realism to her death, how often in real life do you have everything resolved before your demise. There is something to be said for reminding us all the issues she had unfinished in her life before it came to an end.
I personally don’t think she ejected, all they were doing was showing us that she thought about it before changing her mind, when she said to Lee that she was ready. I sort of hope that she did eject and live, because I will miss Starbuck; she was one of my favorites in the new BSG and Starbuck was my childhood favorite character in the old BSG.
Nothing’s the same anymore.
Cavatar
Cavatar, I just finished listening to the RDM podcast and I honestly don’t think we’ve seen the last of Kara Thrace. There’s nothing that would hold up in a Colonial court that I can site but there are little moments with him and Mrs. Ron that make me think we’ll see her again. Things like the conversations with the network execs about their plan, the call to Katee and Mrs. Ron’s sign off made me think there could be more to it than can be revealed now. There’s no way with such a shocker that RDM would ever let us know that she wasn’t truly dead at this point and plenty of reasons to feed the finality of her passing. It could still go either way and still be valid in the BSG universe. It wouldn’t shock me one bit if we never see her again or in the season four opener she’s in the opera house in the first scene.
I’m done with this show. I am sure that I am not the only one. Listen to the podcast, they only did this because they had this “audacious idea” to kill Kara. I hate them for that: this is the best idea you could come up with?
Now I can go back to yoga on Sunday night and not feel like I am missing anything.
Rose don’t give up yet! There may have been more to the audacious idea than can be revealed now. Maybe it’s wishful thinking but I have a feeling we’ve only seen part one of that idea.
I hope Slingshot et al are right and Starbuck’s destiny has yet to play out, and certainly RDM has a vested interested in making us all believe that she is dead, dead, dead. Anybody watch Buffy? Remember Spike sacrificing his life to close the Hellmouth? A poignant scene, made markedly less so because we all knew he was resurrecting on Angel the following year.
If they do bring her back in some cheesy way, a ghost or a saint or a deity or something equally awful, I’m joining Rose’s yoga class.
Oh come on, Rose! I think you misunderstand RDM’s explanation of how the idea to kill off Starbuck came about. It doesn’t strike me as a merely “audacious idea” but, rather, as the inevitable conclusion to the story they were telling.
I really don’t think you’re going to be seeing Kara Thrace much anymore, Storyknife. I think we’re all in denial thinking of ways that she could come back. There may be a flashback or two, but I imagine that these will consist of scenes of hers that have already played in the past three seasons.
Her destiny will still play out, though. I do think her role in this particular story is done, however.
Exeunt omnes.
Armando, I think you may be right. Starbuck doesn’y have to be here for her destiny to play out. It’s almost sad that in order to make noise and boost ratings in this new day you have to kill off major characters. I remember on this website that when we were predicting which one of the characters was going to die, the majority thought it would be Starbuck, now that it has happened we are all surprised, I am too, we should all start joining storyknife at Rose’s yoga class.
Athenor, it might be time for you to jot down a few more theories about the last three episodes of this season, keeping in mind that season four may be the last, so shouldn’t we start seeing some resolutions to some issues and not so many more things happening that are gonna require resolution? Your theories are pretty good, I am anxious to see what you have to say.
Starbuck could always come back as a Head Starbuck. But in who’s head? Lee’s? Adama’s? Ander’s?
That could be part of her destiny, to lead them to earth, while residing in “the place between life and death”; as Head Starbuck.
Say, I just noticed something weird over at scifi.com/galactica. In the
latest video that they added of Grace Parks answering viewer’s
questions, she’s does so for a while, plugs her new project, then the
‘outtro’ for those types of sessions is played, leading one to think it
is over, but there there is 30 seconds of ‘stuff’ afterwards. I won’t
say anything about the content, other than it looks like they may be
trying to hide clues (ala LOST).
I didn’t get the berse Grace read after her viewer questions segment… any theories?
Frank, I don’t think killing off Starbuck was about ratings. It’s where the story had to go. If you ask me, killing off a central character serves to validate the drama. If Starbuck can die on BSG, then anyone’s fair game now (frankly, I think they copped out on this very issue when they cured Roslin’s cancer last season, rather than killing her off like they should have). Now the drama will be even more meaningful.
You can count me out on that yoga class.
Well for anyone looking to hold on for hope of Starbuck’s return, there’s always the season three gag reel. I won’t say what it was expressly since many haven’t seen it and if true, is a definite spolier. I will say that the first half of what Katee said has now come true. She might have been being equally as honest about the second half.
I expect we’ll see Kara return in the last moments of the season, just as part of the cliff hanger. That will allow them to use her in the movie, and be an awesome way to generate suspense for season 4.
I don’t know much about the gag reel, so I don’t know when it was shot? Was it shot after they finished all of season 3? If not, it could very well be that they didn’t know at the time that Kara was “doomed”.
Like just about everyone else I hope she does come back, but not as a head-starbuck. I dunno, it would just seem like an easy-out in my mind – Six and Balthar have some connections we don’t quite understand, but it explains why they are in each other’s head (literally). Starbuck just won’t fit in with that explanation, so they need to come up with something better.
If she ejected (and that’s a big if, in my mind), she would have had to be picked up immediately by the raider. If she was low enough that the air pressure was enough to blow up the viper, that same air pressure would crush a space suit easily. And I don’t think they would have shown her considering the ejection lever and deciding to stay – and then change her mind again, off camera? Just not likely.
So what does that leave? Reincarnation in some form (Hylon, Cylon, something completely different); Flashbacks; “Head-Starbuck” or some related spiritual guide/angel thing; Space-time shenanigans (wormhole, teleportation, and such craaaaap); Maybe Kara’s kid, cylon raised, grew up really fast? Or something else we can’t think of;
I think the last one (something else) is the correct answer. The RDM podcast made it clear to me that we’re supposed to think she’s dead, but also that she’ll be back.
Or maybe I’m just still in denial!
I hope that she will be back. It would be great if she would come back in a dramatic fashion when we expect it the least.
Maybe she was “pimped” into a part-Cylon as part of a genetical experiment when she stayed at that hospital on Caprica and they now have a couple of spare bodies on a resurrection ship waiting for her demise. Not improbable since Cylon anatomy is supposedly very close to human. They wanted her because she is predited to lead the way to Earth. But she would ultimatly foil them. That would make for a plausible solution and some interesting drama over the fourth season. Imagine Apollo discovering that Kara is now working for the other team…
Anyway, hope she comes back in some fashion other than head Starbuck or ghost Starbuck. I’ll still be watching the show, even without Starbuck I’m very entertained by it.
Cheers!
Zigdon, the shots that compose the gag reels are shot thoughout the season then editied and played at the casts wrap party at the end of the shooting season. I can’t say with any certainty that Katee knew at the time she made her big spoiler announcment but in retrospect it sure seemed she did. At this point the gag reel is spoler free (well maybe not the part we are discussing) but you can find it on YouTube if you search for “galactica gag reel season 3” It’s pretty damn funny either way. 🙂
Thanks for the nice words. But I am honestly finished with this show. Kara was my favorite character and I am not interested in what happens without her there. I’m sure they have more stories to tell, I just won’t be in the audience. If she is dead, I don’t want to keep watching. If they bring her back, say in Jan 2008, I will feel completely used. I feel totally used now even though I am sure she is dead. Think of a better way to tell a story guys. This whole season has been downhill since you got off New Caprica. (And yes I am bitter and yes I am unforgiving. I don’t have that much time to spend on TV. My time is not to be wasted.)
Rose really sorry to hear you feel that way but I can understand where you are coming from. I’ve always enjoyed your posts here and would hate to see you leave. Regardless of where this goes RDM might have made a poor choice if it drives away viewers who frequent blogs like this. No one loves the show we’ve gotten so far than this community. I’m in the optimistic crowd that their will be more to Kara’s fate but I can certainly sympathize with the crowd that feels cheated by this turn.
Carol and Max… The bit at the end of Grace Park’s Q&A was a reference to Blade Runner. It was one of the questions they used to filter out the Replicants. Basically the Blade Runner version of a Cylon detector.
Thanks, Slingshot!
You know, Rose’s saying that she’s done with the show begs a question: what responsibility, if any, does an artist have to his audience? Do Ron Moore, David Eick and the rest of the creative team at BSG really need to worry about alienating audience members through their story choices? Artistic integrity would argue that no, they don’t. This is their work as artists (albeit based on somebody else’s work) and it is their creative prerogative to take their characters and stories in the direction they need to go. Artistic integrity and artwork are little more than vanity, however, without an audience which posits, therefore, that indeed RDM, DE and the rest of the writing/production staff at BSG do have a responsibility to their audience and should treat their characters/stories in such a way as to not alienate them (and in a commercial medium like television, alienating audience members means loss of revenue which could lead to cancelation).
I hope I’m not getting too academic here. As a creative artist myself this is a question I wrestle with a lot and I find it interesting that it’s come up here.
Forgive me, Rose, but I just don’t understand being so attached to a character, unless you saw BSG as simply Starbuck’s story (in which case, since her story appears to be over, continuing to follow any further stories within it would be pointless). It’s always been about a group of people and while stories focus on some more than others, it’s always been a show about ensemble. Granted, Starbuck is a very important part of the show but I don’t think you should stop watching simply because her character is dead. Think about the many ways her death will affect everybody on the show from here on. This is a seminal event for these characters and whether Starbuck returns or not, her presence will be felt for a long time.
So come on, stick around. Give it a chance! What do you say? 🙂
Really thoughtful and intriguing question, Armando.
This reminds me of the argument about literature between HG Wells and Henry James I read about in an essay by James Gunn. HG Wells was all about writing simple, easily understood prose and reaching as many people as possible with his stories. Henry James wanted to build a cathedral with his novels and so long as it was beautiful and lasted forever he didn’t care if anybody came to worship at it or not.
That attitude is still around today, one of the reasons sf is treated as such a bastard child, because–horrrors!–anyone can read it (or watch it) and understand it. It’s certainly why shows like ST:TNG, Babylon Five and BSG are never nominated for any major awards. Not nearly oblique, obstruse or esoteric enough.
So (taking the long way around to an answer to Armando’s question) if RDM and the rest write just to please me, I’m going to get bored fast.
But if they’re building the cathedral just to please themselves, you couldn’t get me inside at gunpoint.
I have to respect the artist’s vision. I have to believe he’s smarter than me, that he has a plan, or why would I ever read a book or watch a television show?
On the other hand, the artist can’t talk down to me, or patronize me, or try to baffle me with bullshit when I know damn well what’s going on. It is also my choice as the viewer of his work if I want to walk away (or go do yoga when the show is on). That’s the risk the artist takes. If he’s got any guts, he will carry on without me.
Everyone has made some great comments on this episode, that have really made me think. For me, bottom line, this was a senseless death that contradicted everything that came before. I want to believe that RDM has a plan, but I can’t help but wonder–did Sackhoff piss off the producers in some way that made it necessary to write her out of the show? Maybe she was offered a movie deal? There are too many loose ends. I will be happy–no, ecstatic to be confounded if there is indeed a plan and Starbuck does after all have a destiny and it is fulfilled.
This just doesn’t have that feel to it.
But who knows? Maybe I’m just in mourning. Starbuck was a great character and I’ll miss the hell out of her.
An intereesting bit of blog on wired along with subsiquent comments. I must warn you…the subsiquent comments do not stack up to the insights provided here by others. Truly, the best comments and analysis are here. Keep up the great speculation.
http://blog.wired.com/tableofmalcontents/2007/03/starbuck_is_she.html
I believe that after reading everyone’s thoughts and conjectures and contemplating…..I think the Hylon route is the most plausible all around. In fact, I believe that all of the F5 are Hylons atm. We do not know what Hylons are capable of so that allows a lot of latitude for the writers. It also allows all this hype to be generated about the show (free BSG publicity).
I think (hope) the next three weeks may prove to be the best shows and story arc ever. I will hate the months off. I believe that we will get a “leaked” clue sometime in the fall when they begin filming the next (final possibly) season. If Katee shows up on the set – something WONDERFUL will be happening.
Wow, Armando, great question. I think I agree with storyknife that there’s got to be some middle ground – particularly in television, when the success of the show depends so much on ratings. Sometimes it’s irritating to have to consider such things when creating art, but unfortunately, I think, they must do it at least some of the time.
For example, killing off Admiral Adama or Laura Roslin may have at some point made a great dramatic event, but if either of those characters were truly “gone” from the show, it’d probably be a disaster for BSG all around. I’d like to say the same about Katee Sackhoff, but at some point they have to prove to the audience that it’s not all safe and predictable. I suspect this is what keeps a lot of us coming back – the writing is smart and we’re never quite sure what’s going to happen.
On the other hand, I can respect it if artists want to create art for art’s sake, with no feedback or criticism or ratings. In fact, it might be kind of therapeutic. But in TV, I’m not sure it’s possible. Who’d give you a contract if they knew you didn’t care about audience response? It would have to be AMAZINGLY good stuff.
Ultimately…I think I’m back where I began: in the middle. Despite the feel-good value of creating something just for yourself, I think most art should communicate something, or create some kind of connection with people. It’s not mandatory, but it’s the best way, IMHO.
Hi Guys,
Starbuck theory:
She’s a Hylon.
Her mother was “impregnated” during the first Cylon War and knows that Starbuck is a Hylon. She did all the things she did as a plan – she was programming Starbuck to understand she can rely on others – either Human or Cylon. That’s the message. To survive in the human world you can’t trust the humans. To survive in the Cylon world you can’t trust the cylons.
That’s also why she freaked on Starbuck and broke her hand with the bugs. You do something bad, you get hurt. You can’t be caught – be sneaky.
Also her mother pushing her to be the best (17th not good enough). She knows she’s special and can be better than all humans. She may be consoling her self with this feeling but that’s what she thinks.
On the other hand, Leoban knows that Starbuck is a Hylon. He was trying to show Starbuck that she can rely on cylons for support (emotional or otherwise).
Dean
Sci Fi TV Rules 101:
Rule 15: No body recovered = the character assumed to be dead can, and usually will come back.
Yugh, rolling around in all that gesso was so gross!! I’ve had gesso all over my hands like that and it DOESN’T COME OFF. Anyway, I do really wish they had done something else with her painting, it wasn’t done as well as I thought it could’ve been. I really think that Katee Sackhoff left the show though because they wrapped it up too nicely. I mean, everyone she had a serious relationship with was resolved, so the basic rule is that when that happens you’re dead. Also, it just doesn’t work as well without her. You need the goody two shoes (Lee) and the hotshot (Kara).
I must say though, I always got the feeling that Starbuck’s dad was the nice parent and her mom was the crazy one, since Starbuck had his jacket and his music.
I thought that everyone was being really dumb the way they let Starbuck keep going out in her viper because she really was acting wierd. She couldn’t even get in her cockpit, for frak’s sake. None of them REALLY made her sit down and take a break, although I do understand that things are so crazy that no one really has the time or energy to worry about stuff like that.
Seriously though, the ship that Adama broke at the end? That was a $15,000 museum piece that was ON LOAN! Olmos was so into his performance that he just smashed it!
Wow, I just have to say that the outro music is FANTASTIC. If that were a full length song I’d listen to it all the time XD.