February 26, 2007
GWC Podcast #31
This week’s show title, “Dirty Hands” applied to both the workers on the tillium refinery ship and to Adama and Roslin. Highlights: We wonder why Adama’s legendary leadership skills (and Roslin’s insight) take a vacation this episode, speculate about life through the eyes of the civilian fleet, question whether Tyrol will ever trust Adama again, and suggest taking up a collection to bribe Ron Moore to put Tory to work shoveling tillium.
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This is DEFINITELY going to be the minority opinion, and I have not yet listened to y’all take on this, but I agree with Adama.
The fleet is a military operation with the specific objective of preserving the human race. That CANNOT be accomplished democratically. No successful military in history has ever been run democratically. It would be a disaster.
The fleet is not a nation, and people on board should not pretend it is. Mistakes by the voters do not simply result in higher taxes or maybe an occasional depression.
That’s why any strikes should be dealt with harshly, as Adama did. Centralized leadership, with all the human rights abuses and unfairness it brings about, it the only workable method of leading a difficult mission.
But Adama didn’t deal with the strike harshly. He dealt with the work stoppage aboard Galactica harshly. He still sent Tyrol over to talk the civilian strike over with Roslin.
The civilian fleet is not the military. Galactica, however, is. I agree with Adama’s rationale and he is justified in his methods in quashing mutiny in his ship. Roslin was too heavy handed with the strikers, although she seems to have seen the error of her ways by the end (maybe her apparent despotism has more to do with stress than anything else).
But is it me or is Baltar suddenly a man of principle?
Anyway, the podcast isn’t up on iTunes yet, so I guess I’ll get it tomorrow. Hang in there, guys.
Wasn’t Roslin a negotiating for the teachers’ union when the worlds ended?
(I should say something about Oaxaca here….)
“But Adama didn’t deal with the strike harshly. He dealt with the work stoppage aboard Galactica harshly.”
I must be confused then. What is the difference between a strike and a work stoppage?
And I agree that Baltar’s Ralph Nader streak is a bit sudden. The writers seem to have done less inter-episodic character building this season. Character changes are very out of the blue.
the strike was on a civilian ship. no military command.
the work stoppage was on galactica. military command. Adama in charge.
all I have to say is that life aboard the fleet sucks … I would have settled on NC if I were them as well. Brilliant that the writers have found a use for Baltar which was totally believable to me. He was right about almost everything he was saying, and I thought it very interesting what the fleet was turning into … and Baltar was right, no one who’s last name wasn’t adama would ever command the fleet, and lets face it, no one but roslin will ever be president.
Finally got a chance to watch the episode. A few thoughts.
I liked Baltar in this one. I like the idea of him writing something to stir
people’s thoughts, particularly because he actually has some valid points.
Clever on his part. If they try to airlock him now, he’ll be a martyr.
I like the Seelix character a lot, and it’s great that she’s being given a
change to be a pilot. The very very end of the ending was great and put
a smile on my face.
Roslin was a bit weird in this one, too much all over the map. The combo
of AirlockRoslin, ReasonableRoslin and flirtatiousRoslin, didn’t mix well.
Like gnawing on beef jerky, while slugging a mug of beer that has a
cherry and whipped cream on top.
The confrontation of Chief and Adama didn’t work for me. As soon as
Adama starts threatening to kill the mutineers, I’m thinkin’ bullsh*t.
Humanity needs a) as many live bodies as possible and b) trained
personnel like Chief and Callie are too valuable to wantonly discard.
I didn’t like Chief telling Callie that Adama caved. As far as we know,
she still thinks that and is feeling smug about it. I don’t want her
gettin’ any ideas about the ‘next’ cause, whatever that may be.
I want to see occasional shots of Caprican folks cleaning bathrooms,
etc. I like that they addressed the main issue of this episode, it’s
important.
Missed seeing cutie-pie Anders, but presumably we’ll see him next week.
Didn’t miss Lee or Dee, at all.
Preview for next week looks good.
It can be argued that the entire fleet is under military command. I mean, they ARE at war (literally, every civilian has had nukes/missles aimed at their ships) and the civilians are a part of the war effort. Pretty much every ship has contributed to the war effort in some form or fashion.
The pieces of the puzzle are really starting to fall into place for the final four episodes. I had to check because I keep forgetting episode 301 and 302 were lumped together, so it’s kind of like we only got 19 episodes. I hope they get an hour and a half finale if they need it, because I think it worked really well last season. I mean, I’m still kind of shocked they jumped a year forward in time. No other show has the balls to pull that off and do it well. What a great move!
Does anyone else not totally believe Baltar’s story of humble beginnings. He sounds like another whiny farmboy I know. How about a nice glass of blue milk?
I too agreed with Adama’s decision, and saw a separation between the strike and the work stoppage. Order has to be maintained on the Galactica.
I was also thankful that we finally had an episode having a real feel-good ending. Things have been very dark for most of the season, and I for one am thankful for a ray of hope. Of course, I suppose that means the next episode will turn everything upside down! 🙂
The final scene seemed to be a welcome return to some long-overlooked traits of Roslin’s style of leadership. Her conversation with the Chief ranks up there with two of my favorite scenes with her: answering the question in the miniseries right after the attack of “who put her in charge” of the vessel. “Good question. The answer is no one.” And her conversation with Lee about needing a liason. “You see why I need your help.” The woman has some fraking good people skills, that we haven’t seen for awhile.
The one down side to this episode for me was Baltar. I thought the transition from traitor to visionary was far too quick of a character change. It seemed a little much to be hearing about how a man who loves good clothes, the finest cigars, and turning Colonial One into his own Presidential harem is really concerned about the formation of an aristocracy. His primary concern isn’t that it exists, but that he be a part of it. What he wrote has merit, but is it just me, or did it seem like he morphed into Zerek? His role in this episode would have fit Zerek to a “T”, but Baltar? No.
Hmm. Or are Baltar and Zerek working together?
so did tory have her arm in a sling cause of the crash? yet another detail gone by the wayside…
I just watched the episode on ITune and now I am listening to your podcast. Why are you guys and gal whining and complaining about Adama. Adama did what he had to do just as Tyrol blackmailed the workers for the parts.
If anyone has ever been in the military, good leaders command and inspire. Adama commanded by threatening to execute Cali. He inspired when he told Tyrol that he had a meeting with the President and he let him negotiate on behalf of the union.
I thought Adama did the right thing.
Baltar, once again, proved why democracy doesn’t work because the people in the fleet are stupid. After what happened on New Caprica and people believe him, they do not deserve to survive.
This is the episode that I have been waiting for since the cylons attacked. What is the daily life like for someone not on Galactica? Are they getting paid? What do all the ships do? Does everyone have a job in the fleet or are they just hanging out?
I am a union first person (down with Walmart), so I loved this episode. Workers need unions for protection. Unions were instrumental in creating the weekend, overtime pay, and health insurance. Although unions have had corruption (what hasn’t), they made working conditions better for American workers overall.
Great connection with the immigrant labor force and this episode. I live in Arizona and what people do not understand is that immigrants touch everything first. They build our homes, pick our crops, cook our food, and take care of our elderly. They work in horrible conditions but rarely speak out because of fear of deportation. This has happened throughtout history. Immigrants (indentured servants and slaves) have been used for slave labor since the beginning of the United States.
I’m with you Armando. I seems that lots of people keep confusing what Adama’s goal was. Adama did not stop the strike. The problem was the deck gang refusing to work. Chief started the strike which is fine, legal and even nessiary to gain attention from the Office of the President. Chief made the mistake of involving the deck crew which had nothing to do with the refinery and thier mutiny was completely unnecessary.
Chuck, I think you were talking about my pervious posts about commissions and field commissions that I made when Lee was demoted back to Major.
The nail was hit on the head when you guys talked about the differences between command and leadership. It is like trying to push a rope or a string, you just can’t do it. That is what he was doing with the Chief when he threatened to kill Cally, instead of motivating the Chief to work and get the crew of the mining ship to also work. I also should note, that even if the Admiral (even when operating on detached service (the term that Admiral Cain used when justifying her sentence of death to Helo and the Chief)) has the legal and moral authority to jail his officers and enlisted crew for insubordination and mutiny under the uniform code; it does not give him any authority to command civilians in the Untied States. I would assume that the 12 colonies had a similar law to our “Posse Comitatus†act. The year escapes me, but it was instituted back in the 1870’s or 1880’s.
Even under detached service, the Admiral cannot just start killing his crew indiscrimately, especially the ones who’s only crime is being close to the accused. I would also make an argument that the Galactica is NOT on detached service, given the President is spending all of her free time in the Commanding Officer/Group Commander’s quarters.
They are also not under direct fire from the enemy, and if you want to talk about officers obeying orders (Adama opened the box on this topic) why was Helo not jailed or killed back in the Virus Episode. To show such open favoritism and counterdiction can and will DESTROY your credibility with those you are trying to lead.
Part of the problem that forced Adama into this position of using might in my opinion is the total fall of the chain of the command! A non commissioned officer should NOT being having the ear of the highest ranking officer in the military. If you look back in the show, Adama has been as his best when he was able to lead from a slight distance while Tigh was the hard ass. This let Adama give the big motivational speeches and the left Tigh free to yell at people and to kick them into shape to carry out the ideals of the speech.
Use of chain of command exists for a reason in a military, and the Chief didn’t follow that. It would have been easiest to quite him by saying he needed to take it up with the CAG or the XO and follow procedure. This allows a person to say, “I will take your concerns to the Admiral, now get back to work.†It also gives the Admiral a window of time to look at the problem (if there is one) and to perhaps and possibly even talk with the Chief later and give him a BIG PICTURE overview and say some of his ideas or plans on fixing the situation; all the while the Chief has some satisfaction and can maybe even share that with others.
I hope this is what you were looking for Chuck; I will post more if I think of it. Right now I am going back to listen to the podcast.
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I am in for a quarter to see Tory working on the ship.
Congrads of Rolling Stone, and thanks for the nice things you said about us. Again I am sorry for you loss. Thanks guys I have enjoyed your podcasts very much and look forward to next week.
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Dewey,
Great points! I think Baltar’s “transformation” is far more complex than we yet know. Obviously he’s a very astute observer and his point about the rising class structure in the fleet is correct. I think you’re correct in assuming that he would like nothing more than to (re-)join the rising aristocracy. Baltar’s playing the Che Guevara angle (except I can’t see Baltar running off to fight wars of revolution) to help himself at his trial, one way or another. I think the fact that people on the fleet are willing to listen to him, after everything he put them through, is the first sign of the chaos that Zarek seemed so afraid of a few episodes ago.
I’m sure it’ll all start hitting the proverbial fan before long.
Long post – sorry.
Misc –
Congrats on the Rolling Stone mention. You deserve it for having created a fan site that has avoided most of the fan site pitfalls.
After thinking about it – there is no way that there is not a huge labour surplus in the fleet. All those refugees we saw in the starboard pod – you’re telling me not one of them could handle delivering laundry? Failure of leadership if everyone who has a currently applicable skill is not being followed around by a someone who has a skill that is NOT currently necessary for some on the job training. Think about the passengers on a commercial jet – how many marketing execs or sales managers does the fleet need?
Has anyone gone back to track the number of survivors listed at the start of each episode? Has it been changing each week or remaining constant? I have the impression that it is dropping but am too lazy to check it myself.
Adama was within his rights as a commander in time of war to threaten death, but his legitimate target was the Chief not Cally. I agree that it is clearly a failure of the leadership to have allowed the situation to get to this point. They’ve done the Adama makes a speech and makes it right “beat”, to use an RDM term, before. Adama and Roslin acted poorly to raise the drama level. The phrase you used “unmotivated” is right on target. Kind of cheap tactic on RDM’s part – this is something they have been pretty good at staying away from so I hope this doesn’t continue as a trend. They showed Roslin “stressed” to have to live in the cramped after section of Colonial One. Oh poor thing. But they also show here enjoying a whiskey in her clean clothes, going to the gym for a workout and throwing someone in jail on a pretext. I think the final scene was supposed to show her having seen the light – but will be interesting to see which schizo Laura shows up next week. Makes me nervous when they start having characters behave too differently to pump the story.
I give credit for Galactica showing some of the things which are assumed in so many other shows, but since this is fantasy fiction lots of things can’t be looked at too closely, but the economics of Galactica DONT work. This falls into that class – like the technology, resource management etc.
Having spent a little time in the military way back when, I have some comments regarding leadership. I have always defined leadership as motivating someone to do something they do not want to do and making them feel good about it.
Now as to the obligation of the subordinates to carry out orders. Actually Adama is wrong. No subordinate has an obligation to carry out an order they knos is illegal. If you tell me to shoot a child, should I obey because you told me. There is a huge amount of Nuremberg case law that would hold me just as responsible for that act.
There were better ways to motivate the refinery workers than what was done. There has to be some humanity interspersed between the need of the fleet. Even above and beyond the need to keep that ship running without problems, there is a basic human need to have some downtime. Some appreciation that by continuing on the path they have set they will create a society that they do not like. A caste-system that is every bit as rigid as any that our Earth has ever seen.
Like Adama mused at one point, it is not enough to survive, they must deserve to survive. By neglecting the needs of the people and not giving every person a voice, I posit that they are running the risk of not deserving to survive, in my book.
Adama needs to get out to the fleet. He needs to make every one of the workers know that the job they do is every bit as important as the Viper pilots. And in fact more important. A realization that the jobs they do are dirty and horrible, but they are needed. Work within the confines of what can be done with regards to programmed rest. But motivate every person in the fleet, not just the pilots on Galactica.
And as to whether this was a good episode or not. The evidence is in your own podcast. The feelings you have about how the characters were portrayed, and the stories being told show me that the episode did its job. We are thinking. this is what BSG is best at and RDM has created. It is indeed the best show on television. And even when the episodes do not measure up to the high bar of BSG, it is still better than practically anything else out there.
I have to jump on Adama’s side on this argument. I just listened to the podcast and maybe earlier posts have changed your minds but I think that Adama’s actions are justified. The moment that Callie involved military personnel aboard the Galactica in the work stoppage, Adama’s hands were tied. I think that Adama’s leadership skills have been unwavering especially when it comes to the integrity of the millitary vessel. His intention of nuking the planet when the cylons tested him a few episodes ago, his stubborness at keeping the Galactica afloat while everyone migrated to New Caprica. I think he’s been consistent. The look on the Chiefs face when Adama mentions the word Mutiny said it all. I know that the Chief was not making a bad request but Adama needed to settle the Mutiny question before he could listen to anything else. Once that was settled, he went back to being the man you were expecting.
Just my two cents worth.
Great ‘cast. Can’t wait to hear Audra’s outro.
I’m still not happy with this episode, although the Adama thing didn’t phase me. That seemed perfectly in character, as others have pointed out. However:
Why were they refining all that tylium during New Caprica?
Why do the Marines take orders from Roslin now?
What happened to her personal detail?
Why the hell didn’t a school teacher realize that they needed some kind of school system? Isn’t that what she spent all her time doing on New Caprica?
The biggest question is, what did the cast and crew do to piss off RDM? He’s remarked from day one how they hate the Colonial One set, because it’s cramped and awkward. Now he’s bannished them to the most cramped portion of that set for at least a few episodes.
What this about the Rolling Stone? I haven’t gotten a chance to listen to the ‘cast yet, but that sounds pretty big!
Two other issues, You guys are applying the stigma that our (earth’s) society has with burning books to Galactica society. It is likely that communism and nazism never existed in the twelve colonies so the concept of book burning ( though tragic in our society) may be lost on colonial society. In other words, what if Roslynn was not joking, does book burning mean to their society what it means to ours? Just something to think about. The second point and only more obvious. You talk about how Tyrol can trust Adama again after this episode but you don’t point out that Adam was willing to kill both Tyrol and Callie while they were on the planet just because the Cylons were going to land some ships on the planet. In my book nuking me and my wife while I was doing my job and orphaning my child is much more worthy of a lack of trust than saying that you are going to execute my wife for instigating a mutiny. I appreciate your lack of respect for Adama in this situation but I think that you should be consistent in your criticism. Adama has a job to do. I don’t know that you can narrow it down to good and bad leadership. It has always been about the situation.
This was a great episode all around. Like the greatest scifi, it made you think about real world problems in a new way.
Baltar is not suddenly a populist. He is just trying to stir discontent among the civilians for his own benefit. (Very cleverly in my opinion – this guy is supposed to be a genius after all) I’m glad to see Roslin was able to nip some of this by listening to the union at the end.
Maybe Adama was wrong in his threat to Tyrol. I see why he did it (the survival of the species), but does a species that would do something as barbaric as that deserve to survive? I don’t know- it’s a tough question.
Clearly he was right in letting Tyrol talk to the President afterwards. A real tyrant would not have done that. The “aristocracy” had been getting a little too comfy and forgot about where the tyllium and algae were coming from.
Has anyone ever seen the movie “Metropolis” (silent film)? This episode reminds me of the movie plot. There was an upper class of thinkers and managers who lived in fancy estates and a lower class of underground workers who made everything run. The theme was the Head(upper class) and Hands(lower) need to be connected by a Heart. Tyrol is a guy with a lot of Heart, and makes a great mediator here.
I just realized that this is a union man’s dream. A union which consits of *every civilian in the fleet!*
What kind of power does Tyrol have now? “Excuse me, Madam President, but speaking on behalf of EVERYONE I would just like to say…”
Hey, guys… I wasn’t expecting the podcast to be up so quickly. Thanks for putting it up.
Man, I loved this episode. Again, I sense that someone has a direct link to RDM. We were talking about showing an episode on how life would look in the fleet almost two months ago. Hit the nail on the head.
There were some who said that Adama’s leadership style somewhat sucks in this show. I disagree. I think Adama did the absolute right thing. Tyrol had to be reminded of where he was. He wasn’t on the refinery ship anymore. He was on the last remaining military ship in the fleet. Tyrol had to be reminded that he was in the military. I don’t think Adama would have shot Callie, but his point was made. I still think that Adama is the best leader ever. EVER. I wish I had him as a role model during my days as an officer in the Navy, I would have emulated him.
Baltar. What an interesting character. I think he really was a son of a farmer who escaped that life to become a Caprican socialite. I think that explains everything about him. His narcissism is merely a symptom of his continual need to hide who he really is. He wants to be a Cylon. Why? So that he can finally have worth. Does this make sense? Think about it for a minute. For those of us who had HORRIBLE high school years, what’s the one thing on our mind constantly. “I’ll show them”. If we look at some of the successful people in this country, we’ll find that quite a few of them had very bad high school years, and those trying (traumatic) times drove them to where they are today (think of Bill Gates). Now, for those who were popular in high school, you ain’t gonna get it. For the nerds, goths, losers, geeks and scrubs, y’all know what I’m talking about. I’m starting to like Baltar even more. He’s even looking more sympathetic.
I really liked this episode. That makes two character driven episodes in a row that I really liked. I was so happy Seelix got to become a pilot.
Now, next two episodes, I’m thinkin’ we’ll find out if Starbuck is a Cylon or not. Okay, let’s lay the bets. I’m in for her NOT being one.
Great comments on the union stuff but I have to comment a little on where Adama’s head may be during this episode. I agree with the comments that Adama was not acting out of character at all although it seems like he was being harsh. I remember back in “Unfinished Business” when he made that speech to the crew about letting his family break up and how he got soft and how he wouldn’t let that happen again and this episode really resonates those comments. I think the events of the occupation on NC has really put him through the ringer and he is now fully aware the cost that can be assumed if he doesn’t focus on the fleet as a whole.
If anyone knows it, Adama knows the impact of the actions of a few can cause a ripple effect to the whole. Funny thing, when I saw this episode, I really didn’t enjoy it, but after listening to the podcast and reading everyone’s comments, I can say that I have a genuine appreciation for it.
Count me in on a quarter for Tory scrubbing the decks of the Galactica or shovelling tyllium in the refinery. I would pay good money to see that.
Browncoat Bryan, I’ll go with you on Starbuck NOT being a Cylon. I have a feeling that her destiny will become much clearer in this next episode. Maybe she’s the one who finds Earth or even dies.
I thought you all were being too hard on Adama & Laura. I think they’re flawed as all of us are and will not make perfect decisions all the time or even at first…not to mention the specific agenda or point that the authors are making for that episode. If we’re going to have an episode dealing with unions and class conflict, then someone has to be “the man”. Eventually Laura and Adama did come around to work with the people, but initially it was necessary that their orders be obeyed and that the tyllium flowed.
Hey guys long time listener – first time commenter
I just wanted to say how great the podcast is and congrats on the rolling stone item.
Just a quick point about Baltar – I heard his accent discussed in the podcast. It’s definitely Northern England, maybe around the Yorkshire area.
It was a great choice because that area was, and to a certain extent still is, considered the poorer part of the country. It is full of heavy industry, mining and farming.
Northerners are considered to be more working class that southerners. If a Yorkshire man wanted to pass off as super posh he’d ditch the accent and adopt a slightly effeminate London accent. Great acting, nice touch.
I think Baltar was inspired in this episode. I don’t think he’s made a big transition to being a man of principles. He’s just a survivor with an instinct for where the power lies at any given moment. His only hope is to win over the people.
Plus Tyrol is fast becoming my favourite character. But only because we haven’t seen Anders in a good while.
Sorcha, thanks for the accent info.
I like the Chief, but I didn’t like how he extended the strike to Galactica. It would have made more sense if he called a general strike, and then Cally took it upon herself to include the Galactica. That would also have made the “or I’ll shoot your wife” bit less odd.
I also really liked where they are going with Baltar.
He probably still retains part of the population’s support. A lot of people who voted him in because he was promising settlement on the new planet are likely to be forgiving his actions, by doing this they avoid having to blame themselves for their vote. Even really bad politicians, ones who screw up over and over still usually maintain part of their base. Denial over accountability. Baltar, by shifting blame on the ruling class, gives these people an excuse. He also reaches to so many people in the fleet who would find comfort in scapegoating others for their bad lot in life. Zarek, by accepting the VP position forfeits his position as champion the the “little people”. Maybe Zarek saw it coming and that’s why he was against the trial and wanted Baltar to be dealed with covertly.
There are some parallels with american politics here, but let’s not get into this 😉
In any case, some really great acting by Callis there. Is he sincere or acting? Maybe his survival instincts are making him believe in this cause because subcontiously he knows that’s what he needs to do to survive.
Jeez, next thing you know the colonials will be eating Cylon goo.
Setting: Restaurant on Colonial One
Waiter: Well ,Madame President, I suggest the Doral it’s fresh tonight.
Roslin: No I think I’ll have some Simon
This episode is one of my favorites. “33” is still my favorite. Seeing how people are dealing, or not dealing, with life under these circumstances makes for a great science-fiction episode. I have not heard the podcast yet but still have a few comments on the episode.
First, I could see both Chief’s point of view as well as Adama’s. The are just looking at the problem from different perspectives. What Adama said is absolutely correct. He can’t have people under his command that will not follow an order. Period. I am former military and that is just the way it is. However, it makes you sort of wonder why Adama hasn’t kicked Helo in the teeth a few more times.
The workers are in an extremely tough situation. The work is hard but needs to be done. Maybe if they could view the larger picture they wouldn’t have let the process slip and maybe they wouldn’t be working in those jobs. To call those jobs slave labor isn’t fair. They are jobs that must be done for the sake of everyone’s survival. If people are too short-sighted to see that.
However, I can see why they were upset with their conditions and why a “union” is necessary.
My biggest problem with the episode is how Roslin changed so much from her beginning “airlock” attitude to being little Miss Understanding. She could have saved a lot of hassle if she would have been more understanding in the very beginning. Then again, as President and Admiral you don’t want to bow to threats of any level.
Best line in the episode, well the one that will hopefully be played off from a few more times was something like: “Do you see a time when the fleet will not be commanded by someone with the last name Adama?”. That was a powerful line.
Now two questions:
1. When is James Callis going to get an award? He is fraking brilliant!
2. Does anyone read the Battlestar comic book?
I rarely find my opinion on a show so at odds with the GWC crew but Adama was right on with Tyrol. You don’t get to pick which orders you want to follow and when you start threatening his vipers, then that’s mutiny and up against the wall with you. Have we forgotten the speech at the end of “Unfinished Business� He got too soft and let people get close and that stopped from that point forward. Say what you want about the strike with the civvies but you don’t get act that way in the military and the consequences are known.
I agree with those who are lauding Callis’ performance. Baltar is so very twisted, in so many ways, and it’s fairly disconcerting how he’s bent reality (the reality of societal class is most assuredly an issue for the Colonists) to suit his own predicament and background. We do find out that Baltar re-invented himself if he truly was the son of farmers; the idea of arrogant, intellectual, fashion-conscious Baltar mucking stalls and milking a cow is so unexpected it’s hard to imagine. That said, it explains loads about him, doesn’t it? No wonder Gaius doesn’t know what or who he really is – he’s denied his own culture, family and people to become somebody else. What’s amazing is this season alone he’s done it 3 times: he’s the President at the beginning, lately he’s tried to be a Cylon, a Chosen One, and now he’s trying to be someone that the common Colonist can relate to. Will the real Gauis Baltar please stand up?
Something very fishy is going to happen in the next episode and I have a feeling we won’t find out exactly what happens until next season. How cruel will that be?
Browncoat and 13th Cylon, 50 cents she’s not a cylon!
Dude, put me on the list for Tillium Worker Tory!! I’m am so for that!!!
One thing I’ve been thinking about is who says the prophet can’t be a cylon? I don’t think that the scrolls are necceassarily limited to just humans because the scrolls say that there is an exodus. So both the humans and the cylons have had an exodus. Actually, come to think of it the cylons have had two, the first one in the first cylon war and then the second one when they decided the attack on the colonies was wrong.
I’m just so excited for Maelstrom because I’m an art student and my favorite BSG scene of all time is actually in Valley of Darkness when Starbuck and Helo go to Starbuck’s apartment and you see all of her awesome paintings. Dude, my apartment (and several of my friend’s places), especially the coffee table, is just as cluttered as hers is. Kudos to their art department for getting it right! It’s just one more reason for me to love Starbuck even more! I just hope they show her painting in a realistic way and show the process a bit instead of just throwing some paint on the wall. That would sort of ruin it for me.
Let it be known that I am just barely pre Rolling Stone crowd because I hadn’t heard about it until you mentioned it ^^;. Even though I’m very new. Heh.
Also, forgot to mention two things. I really wish I could paint on the wall of my apartment like Starbuck did, and I’m really super sad that they didn’t have Starbuck’s Dad’s piano music on the soundtrack T_T.
jeffex, ““33″ is still my favorite” Yeah, that’s a tough one. They hit the high note on the first frakin’ (seasonal) episode they made.
Is it just me or is Chief one busy Frakker?
1.He is deck chief
2.He apparently is the chief engineer (always doing repair work on the ship)
3.Now he is union president
4.He eats algae meatloaf
5.Father
6.Religious know it all (parents were ultra religious, so he found eye of jupiter)
and a few other things I forgot
My impression was that Adama threatened the Chief (ie shooting Cally) over the strike by the Galactica Deck Crew, not the Tillium workers.
I always thought that in the military, you can’t just go on strike as that is mutiny. As Bob Bohanek says it’s justifiable to refuse an order if it’s to shoot kids, or unarmed civilians, but it’s not justified for the day to day whingey stuff the deck crew moan about, and definitely not for a faction of the military to be a part of a general strike. I always thought that treason and mutiny were the worst crimes the military had.
No wonder Adama stamped on it.
You are correct Smelsch, I heard the Ron Moore podcast and he explained it exactly as you did. Adama was reacting to the work stoppage on the Galactica, not the refinery.
He also said that in his mind, Adama would have had Callie shot if it had come to it. He dont mess around 🙂
“No” to in the refinery. As a Tory Corollary to Billy-as-Laura’s Conscience (dare we say “Torylary”?)… consider this:
Has there been enough evidence – albeit circumstantial – that Tory may be a Cylon? Now, maybe she is motivated by the crudest of human desires… and even employs the cleverest of human machinations, but anything she has a hand in (ultimately) undermines the stability of the fleet.
And we know nothing of her personal biography, that is any relationships she has currently (other than Roz) or had pre-Apocalypse. Who’s her family or friends – she is strangely ‘unconnected’ in a very people-centric profession. Doubly so in the typical BSG inter-relationship-ally tangled fashion.
From a superficial angle, like so many of the other female Cylon models, she’s a strong-willed hottie to boot (or is that “reboot” in this context?) and it would even out the masculine/feminine imbalance we have at this point.
Given these factors, as elitist as Tory seems, I afraid to but her down in the refinery shoveling Tyllium. The slightest impurity screws that up and she just the gal to sneak it in (under the premise of trying to get out of work “below her”).
I don’t know about you three (and the rest of the GWC-community – or blogo-spheroid), but I feel that we’re going to have at least 1 more reveal before end-of-season. Since that is right around the corner, maybe we ought to re-stoke the flames of speculation again.
(Oh and Tory’s a significant enough a character, but we yet have her under “Posts by Human”; it’s about time she gets up there.)
I don’t know, Writch. Tory was pretty instrumental in the uprising on New Caprica. If she is a Cylon she’d be one of the final five (when are we going to get THAT reveal, at long last?), which would imply, to me anyway, that she would be aware of her identity as a Cylon (then again, would she? I don’t know why I’m assuming that the final five would have some sense of themselves as Cylons).
You’re right about one thing, though: she certainly fraks up just about anything she touches, politically. And she’s certainly no Billy.
Commenting on all the Capricans on Galactica. Isn’t/wasn’t Galactica supposed to be the Battlestar that represented or was the flagship for Caprica? If so doesn’t only make sense that there would be a significant amount of Capricans aboard?
Thanks again love the podcast!
HOLYHOLYHOLYHOLYHOLYHOLYHOLYHOLYFRAKFRAKFRAKFRAK i saw trhe preview fornext week ep. its gonna be STARBUCKIRIFIC, (or ONENIGHTSTANDIRIFIC)
I have a question for the group. I cannot remember what happened to the “original” D’anna….the reporter on Galatica. I don’t remember her being killed. Is she still in the fleet? If so, wouldn’t someone have noticed with all of her model running around on New Caprica? Anyway, if she is still with the fleet then perhaps she is the only one of her model the did not get boxed….and maybe she will show up reporting on the trial. Wouldn’t that be a kick in the teeth to ‘ol Baltar.
Now, for the final five reveal speculation. I again submit that Baltar is to obvious even with D’anna’s apology. They continue to delve into his backstory and the accent in this episode was a great touch.
Everyone seems to think it just cannot be Starbuck, but I think it could be very plausable (or a writers trick – ha). D’anna’s apology ties to both old and new Caprica encounters. Prescient activity in drawing the eye. Ability to “know” how to modify and fly a raider. For that fact – her piloting skills altogether. Leoban’s knowledge of her….he is just crazy enough to disregard the directive to not talk about the final 5…..prolly does not prohibit talking to them….Finally, would be a nice twist for the writers to throw into the mix/
All other speculation welcome.
next week im gussing the death/cylon reveal happens. right now death:Apallo Cylon/Death Starebuck
Danna would be noticed in thee fleet
Hello all,
I agree with eyeless (and Dewey): character development seems to be jumping quite a bit at this point in the season.
Though I like the Baltar as societal philosopher idea, I wonder how he got there. So far to me he seems to have been very self-centered, even when he ran for President and “acted” the candidate’s role, it seemed very disgenuine. Now that he’s “rotting” in a cell, what is motivating him to ruminate on fleet politics and social class? He didn’t even know if his writings made it to the people until Tyrel/The Chief told him. How much can he really know about the state of politics in the fleet?
“If they try to airlock him now, he’ll be a martyr.” — Carol.
That sounds like a valid motivation, actually. An aspect of Martyrhood is selfishness if publicity is sought.
My respect for Adama was also reduced in this episode. And that after they had me feeling pretty good about him in “A Day In the Life”! Though some of you made great arguments for his behavior. I just wish the civvy/military sides had been better differentiated to me. It makes sense now that I think about it. Rosalyn tossed the civvy in jail and Adama tossed the Chief and Cally.
Shouldn’t Adama and Rosylin have more of an inkling of what’s going on in the fleet? I realize that running the Galactica is a very large job, but they don’t have the distractions and entertainment possibilities that they would have had before the attack. (no movies or TV shows!) I’m very glad that we got to see into another ship and a little more about the rest of the population besides the core 15 or so characters. Few SciFi shows drill down into this sort of level. (Yeah, I remember that B5 episode!).
Dewey, I too loved Laura’s conversation with the Chief at the end of the ep. Just like Adama’s comments to her in “A Day…” about what it is humanity values. Those thoughts seem to work like checkpoints for the concience. And remind me of how BSG can reach up beyond a SciFi fantasy show.
Moe, I did notice a drop in population listed between shows. The information is listed at this pretty good site for TV show information. Be sure to scroll down and read over the news at the bottom of the main BSG page.
http://www.tvrage.com/Battlestar_Galactica
Population as noted at TV Rage:
The Eye of Jupiter (1): 41,402
Rapture (2): 41,401
Taking a Break from All Your Worries: 41,403 Tricia Helfer and James Callis — that’s Number Six and Baltar to you — showed up for the New York Comic-Con this weekend, and as IGN previously reported, the pair confirmed that a Battlestar Galactica direct-to-DVD movie is in the works (though Sci Fi later backtracked, claiming that the direct-to-DVD movie is not official yet). But that was just part of the fun of the Galactica panel which took place at the con and featured fanboy fave Kevin Smith engaging the two actors (and Sci Fi’s marketing dude Adam Stotsky) in a Q&A.
Rest of the story discusses the panel. And they link to the previously reported DVD project (Babylon 5 gets one also).
Writch, you’ve sold me on the possibility of Tory being a cylon. Though it could just be incompetence. And Sharon did some very pro-human things not knowing she was cylon. Or was it Boomer?
Well, that’s it for me. Crazy week and hence I’m posting late. Please republish the IGN stories if you have a news or more appropriate place on this website for them. Do check out TVRage.com as well. I find it a good source of TV show info and episode lists though it seems to have a certain amount of user-generated content? I’ve not found any mistakes, however.
Thanks to “ending” the podcast. I know I wasn’t the only one to comment on that but I got the feeling you were looking my way when you said good bye!
Congratulations on making all this happen with the podcast and website as getting listed in Rolling Stone was made possible by the success of your creation!
I think if there is a death, it will be among the top characters. I heard rumors last Summer and there’s one person in particular, but I will keep my mouth shut for now. Imagine me writing the name down and sealing it in an envelope.
ciao!
Woah, something weird happened to my post and some text is missing.
My population statistics bled into the IGN story which you can read here.
http://tv.ign.com/articles/768/768269p1.html
Mars
I suppose I am part of BSG2. I am a long-time reader of Rolling Stone and new to pod cast subscriptions. Your website and commentary has me hooked. It is great to see a group that discusses the relevance of the plot to the characters as well as the viewers. Keep up the great work and I hope to be able to add to future commentary.
P.S. I agree that the “Dirty Hands” episode showed an ugly side to the BSG leadership. Is this a plot devise or simply proof that absolute power corrupts absolutely? I am not sure, but no one is a hero all the time, and every past leader, from Lincoln to Churchill, had their weak moments when better angels failed them. The fleet is a nice microcosm of our larger world. We are not strangers to failed leadership here is the good US of A.