Baltar’s Trial: Evidence for and Against
It appears that Bill’s great call in Podcast #28 regarding the weakness of evidence against Baltar got us all thinking about how this “trial’s” going to actually work out. On the suggestion of listener (and reader and commenter) Moe, I’m creating this thread so we can all share our ideas about the trial in one place.
I’ll kick off the discussion by indicating that as of this moment — and I certainly retain my Gods-given right to be wishy-washy about it — I think the only way we’re going to see Baltar convicted is if they change the rules of the trial by, say, turning it into a “military tribunal” with different standards. (Arktis, this should certainly get a discussion going, re: your call in #28.) If they were to allow hearsay evidence and maybe refuse to present some of the evidence to Baltar or his attorneys before and during the hearing, that swing things around a bit.
One thing I think we’re all probably in agreement on — but let me know if I’m wrong about this! — we’re not going to see Baltar disappear from the show; he’s way too important to the story. But what does that actually mean in terms of the trial’s outcome in a world where he could die and awake the next day as a Cylon? (Or a “Final Five Cylon?”)
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Wow, first comment! Go me!
Anyway, are you sure Baltar is safe because he’s so important? The rumors still persist of Starbuck’s imminent demise, yet she’s a pretty central character to the series. At this point I don’t think anybody’s safe (yet I think I would miss Baltar far more than I’d miss Starbuck right now).
In my opinion, the trial will either be a show trial, with Baltar ending up on the brig for the rest of the series (I do agree that he’s too important to the colonials for them to throw him out of an air lock) or Roslin will begin to feel one of her convenient tinges of guilt at being increasingly dictatorial (let’s face it, she is, essentially, a dictator, albeit an enlightened, beneficent one in the ideal 18th century mold) and try to get the trial to be completely by the book, allowing for Baltar to get off the hook for at least most of his charges. My bet is on the latter option given the show’s direction and the fact that Lee will end up being drafted to perform Baltar’s legal defense (according to press materials anyway).
I think the first question is … will the verdict actually make it into this season, or will that be the cliffhanger?
OK, I might be a bit slow, but it just occured to me that the woman Roslin saw with Baltar before the attack is the same person sitting in the brig. I don’t think Caprica realized that Laura saw them together when she offered to testify.
I’m picturing Caprica getting a thorough grilling on the stand and then Head Baltar showing up to tell her how to get through it.
Armando, I thought whats-his-face (Badger from Firefly) was going to be Baltar’s lawyer?
I don’t think they can drag out the verdict to last to the end of this season. I’d personally be very dissapointed if that was the cliffhanger. I’m hoping for something more Earth-orientated to bring us into season 4.
Say what you will about Baltar but I think most of the evidence against him will be rather flimsy. I guess it all depends on what charges are brought against him. If it is allowing Caprica Six access to the CNP Project and defense mainframe, well she was a contractor working with him and likely had clearance. I’m sure Caprica would testify that he didn’t know who she was at the time. If it’s for surrendering on New Caprica and collaborating, he literally had a gun to his head and I doubt Felix will lie on the stand. If it is for his time aboard the Baseship, he was a prisoner and once again Caprica will stand up for him. I don’t know how much weight her testimony will have but they don’t have any definitive proof to the contrary. The charges against him will be fueled by hate not hard facts.
Lee as defense attorney? Hmmm well it would be nice to see Lee get back to being driven by upholding the law like when he was willing to mutiny because he thought the actions against the president were illegal. I’m wondering what qualifies him though. This was a reservist pilot that wanted to open a bar when his stint was up so I doubt he has any formal training. Then again his grandfather was a civil rights attorney so maybe there is something there. Personally I think Baltar should walk just on what I think they can and can’t prove but I can’t imagine him lasting two seconds in the fleet because of all the hate, right or wrong. Should be interesting.
The only issue with the fact that Baltar was forced at gunpoint to collaborate is the fact that no humans were in the room with him when they had the gun to his head. Baltar also never told Felix that he was threatened to sign the death warrant. The evidence for collaboration – basically, any signed document that Baltar had – is very strong; to my mind, then, the evidence for treason is also strong (assuming that collaboration is one aspect of legal treason). The evidence against – that he was forced at gunpoint – is currently Baltar’s word against a mountain of signed documents. If Caprica comes out and tells them that he was threatened – assuming she is found to be a credible witness – then that might change.
Actually, the paper trail of anti-human legislation signed by Baltar has got to be pretty damning. The question is whether or not the lawyer can provide them with a reasonable doubt as to how complicit he was, or how much they forced him to do Cylon work. And, the question is whether or not that paper trail amounts to treason…
I have a feeling that, while they probably should give him to Laura “The Airlock” Roslin’s tender mercies, they’re going to keep him around because of his knowledge of the Cylons and the intelligence he can bring to the search for earth.
Wasn’t it Caprica who was actually shot to drive home the threat to Baltar? That would be a pretty powerful statement. “He was threatened with a gun to the head, and I was shot in the head as a frakin’ visual aid!”
I honestly think head-Baltar will show up to help Caprica get Baltar out of trouble. She was abandoned by Baltar, but I think she still wants him to live and possibly even be free. Caprica, using slimy head-Baltar, would be able to turn her testimony into something a lot less damning. I don’t think Baltar will be convicted. The only really good evidence anyone had that Baltar was implicated directly in sabotaging the Colonies’ defense system died on the Olympic Carrier. Caprica is an enemy agent and can’t be trusted to tell the truth w/o concern for her own skin. There is after all no Resurrection Ship nearby as well as having frakked herself pretty good with the other Cylons. The most I can see is Baltar being found not guilty by reason of duress.
A military tribunal probably won’t happen. As the case was so eloquently hammered home during Ressurection Ship (God it’s good to catch up!), Adama dissolved the military tribunal. Now unless it was reinstated sometime in the following months, I don’t see that decision changing.
What’s more, Roslin needs.. and I mean NEEDS… a way to legitimize her presidency at this point. It appears that about a month, maybe a month and a half has passed since New Caprica. The honeymoon’s going to start wearing off any time, and people are going to come out of the woodwork. Whatever happens, Roslin needs to show Baltar as being unfit to be Pres, and somehow she needs to be reinstated without proper elections… Again.
Question for those who have seen the eps I haven’t: What became of the heavy raider that Sharon brought to the fleet in “Home?” Is it still on the Astral Queen? Have we just completely forgotten about it? Or am I missing something?
Yeah Caprica’s been there for most of the things that they could try him for. It’s a question of how much help a Cylon witness can really give him. Then again she convinced Laura to give him a trial. And I’d certain;y like to see head Baltar again, it’s been way too long. They just tried their best to get a confession out of him under the duress of drugs and he said repeatedly that he did not conspire and that conspiracy required intent. Not the kind of evidence the colonials are likely to bring since it hurts their case whatever that case may be. I really do think that in the end Felix will end up being his biggest ally. He’s been the crosshairs of a false accusation and I bet those feelings will come out on the stand
I don’t think that Baltar will be found guilty of most of the charges they bring against him (if for no other reason than he isn’t guilty of what they are going to charge him with) and I think they will be able to get him off the others based on precedence.
First, I think we can immediately write off any charges for anything he did on New Caprica. Roslin issued a blanket pardon for everything everyone did there to collaborate with the Cylons. Yeah, some people will say that she only issued that pardon to the people “in the fleet” but I think that most will agree that the pardon should apply to him too. So, coerced or not, Baltar’s signing of a bunch of death warrants can’t be held against him.
What about allowing Six to have access to the defense mainframe back on Caprica? OK, he technically is guilty here. As I have said before, it doesn’t matter if he knew she was a Cylon or not; he gave an unauthorized person access to classified information. That makes him guilty.
Or does it? Consider Tyrol. Tyrol knew that something was going on with Boomer. He knew that she had the same explosive charges that were used to destroy the fleet’s water supply, but he helped cover up her involvement and lied to protect her. Tyrol was never punished for this. So, based on precedent, a person who helps or even protects a Cylon that they do not know is a Cylon is not guilty for anything that Cylon does. Baltar’s helping the Cylon infiltrate the defense mainframe can’t be held against him.
He knew Boomer was a Cylon, both from his Cylon detector and from headSix, but didn’t tell anyone. He can argue that he was afraid that Boomer would kill him if he admitted to knowing the truth and can also argue that he tried to convince her to kill herself before she carried out her mission. Of course, the easiest defense here is to point to Athena and say “everyone trusts her now, just like I did then”. So, Baltar’s not reporting Boomer as a Cylon probably can’t be held against him.
That takes care of the biggest charges they are likely to bring against him. So, what else is he guilty of?
Well, he modified his Cylon detector to pass everyone. Of course, in all probability no one knows that he did that so it is unlikely to ever come up.
The only serious thing I can think of that they may get him on is giving the bomb to Gina. Think about that for a second. He *GAVE* an *ATOMIC BOMB* to a *KNOWN CYLON*, and one who had very good reason to dislike humans at that. Hard to argue his way out of that one though, again, it is likely that no one knows he was the one who gave it to her.
The final thing to remember is that, in the ultimate analysis, Baltar really isn’t guilty of anything except weakness and self-interest. He isn’t an evil scheming villain who plotted with the Cylon to destroy the colonies; they just took advantage of his weakness. Most of his actions since then have been either to cover up that original involvement or to boost his own ego and importance. Evil? Hardly.
Tanstaafl I just rewatched the mini and I’m not convinced she was an unauthorized person with access to classified information. She was definitely working with him and may have poked around in places outside the scope of the project but she may have very well had the proper security clearances. It’s ambiguous in the mini and I’m leaning toward it was easy for her to do since she had the proper clearance.
I agree about the nuke though. Of all the things he’s done that’s the real crime even if no one knows it.
I thought in the mini she was from a cooperating company, feeding him secrets to help him win the contract?
Or did I just read that on the wiki?
Anyways. Tyrol WAS punished for collaborating with Boomer, although not in an orthodox way. Baltar injected him with a serum that stopped his heart and respiratory functions, and used him as a pawn to get information from Athena. I think being put at the edge of death could be considered quite a punishment.
Admiral Cain was onto something. Adama’s love for his crew blinds him, usually to reckless abandon. He does things in ways quite unorthodox (if not as extreme as Cain), and trouble ALWAYS arises when the traditional methods of democracy and justice and ethics enter the picture.
Perhaps the Cylons know this. As Athena puts it, “You wonder why we want to kill you?” She’s referring to how Adama had just tried to choke her to death, an act she deliberately allowed. Human nature is not ethical, it is not orthodox, it is not order.. It is an existance of chaos, of coping with those things beyond your control. It’s the antithesis of a machine, which relies on order for safety.
Adama didn’t start showing true affection for Roslin until she started breaking the rules and doing things her own way, instead of in the constraints of the government. It was as if a switch was thrown for Adama, and he realized they were on the same side.
So what does all this have to do with Baltar? Baltar is a man who, at his very core, is founded in order. He works as a scientest, a programmer of computer networks. He is a doctor, versed in many different fields of study. He is detached, looking on life from an outsider’s view. Only rarely does he step into the fray… and when he does, drastic things happen.
Yet through all this, he is being manipulated. His logic and reason is being torn apart, his mind poked at… Head Six could give Ellen Tigh lessons in this regard, I’d wager. Baltar has had his psyche torn apart and rebuilt into whatever the final five // Lords of Kobol (or whatever theory you have about Head Six’s origin) want. He may not be Cylon, but he’s not really human anymore, either… At least, not in his base desires outside of self preservation.
Forgive me for rambling. My point is that Baltar’s trial could very easily be seen as a way to have the “imposed order” of the democracy put onto Adama and Roslin, a position that strains them and threatens the fleet any time it arises. The evidence is inconsequential — A good lawyer would turn the lens to all the people involved, and start exposing the flaws and crimes of the command staff… Sort of like the military tribunal did, although that was a witch hunt.
And in the end, Baltar wasn’t with the fleet during the pardon. He’s going to have a hard time proving he was a prisoner (even if he was). And in the end, he is going to be a man without a home once again, other than his messianic nature.
Oh, and I think Caprica is going to steal the heavy raider and rescue Baltar, and they are going to set off for Earth on their own. (hence why I asked if anyone knew the fate of the heavy raider).
Again, forgive the long, rambling posts.
You know, maybe Baltar’s trial will be before a truth and reconciliation commission. I understood Roslin’s “pardon” to have established something like what was established in post-apartheid South Africa. If that’s the case, perhaps it is this group that will hear Baltar’s case.
As for Lee as defense attorney, well, all I know is what I’ve heard/read in various official publications. Maybe I’ve misread it but I understand that Lee will be involved in Baltar’s defense in some way. Yeah, it doesn’t make much sense to me either, but if it gets him to stop whining and start thinking about something other than Starbuck, it will be a good thing.
Lee: And for my final argument, I’m going to whine for two solid hours.
Everyone else in unison: Not Guilty!
Chuck and co.
Thanks for putting this up! Some great arguments already for Baltar’s defence.
I think/hop thes episodes will be an exploration of the rights of the accused in a time of war. Haven’t seen that in the news at all have we? Similar in a way to the genoside episode – at what point do we lose ourselves in order to protect ourselves?
I know I’m repeating myself – but I think if you want a preview of this episode you should go watch Judgement at Nuremberg again. The ‘good’ German judge played by Bert Lancaster.
Guilty or Innocent – Baltar is too important to the show to kill off.
It looks like in the videocasts on SciFi that James Callis more than any other of the actors seems to try to get his own ideas into the show regarding his character. He will want to keep going – Baltar is the most complex interesting character an actor could ever ask to play.
What became of the heavy raider that Sharon brought to the fleet in “Home?
They cut out its brain and used it, through Athena ( then Sharon) to guide the ships all the long way back to Caprica in “Lay Down Your Burdens.”
Re:Baltar
I’m wondering if the trial will be related to some kind of impeachment, which I imagine would have to take place in front of the Quorum of Twelve.
I’m also wondering if he will be tried for things that he did after he left New Caprica with the Cylons? Like helping them find Earth.
OK, I just went and checked and it seems pretty clear that Six would not have had the access she did without Baltar’s help. Here’s the relevant bits of the transcript.
From when they walking through Caprica city
Baltar: It may interest you to know that the final results of the CMP project are working close to 95% efficiency throughout the fleet. Hold your applause, please.
Six: No applause for me? I doubt you would have ever completed the project without me.
Baltar: Yes, well, you helped a bit.
Six: I rewrote half your algorithms.
Baltar: All right, you were extremely helpful, but let’s not forget, you got something out of it. All that poking around inside the defense mainframe. Should give you a huge advantage bidding for the contract next year.
Clearly her being inside the mainframe was something he allowed her to do (and note that he apparently thinks she is an industrial spy).
Later, when she reveals she is a Cylon.
Six: (I)t flatters your ego, to believe that alone among all the billions of people of the Twelve Colonies, you were chosen for my mission.
Baltar: Your mission? What mission?
Six: You knew I wanted access to the defense mainframe.
Baltar: Def… (pause) Wait a minute, the defense mainframe? What exactly are you saying?
Six: Come on, Gaius. The communications frequencies, deployment schedules, unlimited access to every database.
Baltar: Oh my god. (pause) I had nothing to do with this. You know I had nothing to do with this.
Six: You have an amazing capacity for self-deception. How do you do that?
Baltar: How many people know? About me? Specifically, that I’m involved?
Six: Even now, as the fate of your entire world hangs in the balance, all you can think about is how this affects you.
Baltar: Do you have any idea what they’ll do to me if they find out?
Six: They’d probably charge you with treason.
Baltar: Treason is punishable by the death penalty. This is unbelievable.
So both Baltar and Six immediately admit that what he did was treason (and that treason is punishable by death). I think it’s clear that Six would not have had the access she did without Baltar’s help.
I definitely see where you are coming from but two reasonable people can see the same scenes and come to different conclusions. That alone tells me the trial could be pretty good material.
I didn’t get the industrial spy impression, just that she had an upper hand in future contracts because of prior access. An advantage I use all the time in my engineering contracts so maybe I’m biased here. By the same token people stretch the rules all the time not thinking that will be serious consequences, let alone the end of the world. Baltar didn’t think anything he had done was treasonous until the nukes dropping all around him and hindsight kicked in. There’s room for interpretation of both points of view.
Out of curiosity where did you find the transcripts? That would be a handy resource.
Yea that would be helpful about the transcripts.
Hey Lt. I see where you are coming from about points of view, however, we are talking about a Defense mainframe, that would be the equiv. of someone giving us access to the pentagon network. National security and other such stuff, it is a crime whether it was intended or not.
Transcripts are at BSWiki (I help work on them.) Easiest way to get at them is to type “BW:POD” into the search box. (If you have time, consider helping verify some of the backlog.)
I wholeheartedly agree, there is a different level of importance when dealing with national security. Baltar was breaking the rules and that demands an investigation. It reminds me a bit of when Wen Ho Lee was accused of stealing secrets from Los Alamos and selling them to the Chinese. It turned out to be false and he was cleared of treason but he did remove classified material from the facility that he shouldn’t have. By letter of the law they still could have severely prosecuted him but in the end intent does matter.
I agree Lt. Your knowledge has humbled me, way to go busting out real life treason stories to back up your point, i’ve got nothing.
Pike, I’ll check it out, and sure I’ll help however I can.
LOL Frank I just watch a lot of 60 Minutes.
Pike I found the transcripts for the podcasts but not the scripts. Are they somewhere else on the wiki?
Woohoo! I’m officially caught up.
Oh yes. I’m seeing trends, I’m seeing signs… Oh yes. the trial will be quite fun.
Yeah trial! Also known as Lee’s lone (possible) non-whiny moment this season. Or better yet, the one without an annoying 4-sided oddly shaped love thingy. Perhaps Anders and Helo can guards carrying big ‘guns’.
I think this is an interesting discussion. And I love Bill’s (was that his name?) take on how he would defend Baltar.
It seems that the Colonial justice system is very similar to any of our modern Western ones. So that means it’s a system that requires evidence (as much as possible). This is a problem when charging someone with treason or “crimes against humanity”.
1. The logs of who accessed the Defense Mainframe on Caprica are surely destroyed or stored back on Caprica itself.
2. If a nuclear weapon (a most precious commodity) can travel from storage on a flagship to some chick’s room in a floating hotel *undetected* then I doubt there’s much evidence due to lack of controls. So tying him to Gina’s suicide bombing is going to be difficult without an admission.
3. And for all Baltar’s antics on New Caprica, I think it has been better addressed by others before me here. But I would add that the orders he signed would not still be around for use as evidence.
The trial storyline will have to be very creative to be realistic. I hope the writers remember that!
Actually?
Believe it or not, somewhere deep in Galactica, a copy of Baltar’s program probably still exists.
1) We’ve seen them wipe the computer mainframes and bring them back from backups.
2) We’ve seen, on at least 2 occasions, where the various computer subsystems can be networked and are set up to accept such connections without major rewiring.
3) We know Adama got the upgrade, but never installed it. Of course, he couldn’t refuse it or ship it back, so it might be somewhere.
4) We know the Pegasus was in the fleet for a damned long time, and was more likely than not upgraded to the new system (although Cain mentioned going into dry dock for an overhaul). Unless an ep I haven’t seen contradicts this, everything about the Pegasus implies it had the more advanced computer networks. If I knew what happened, I would’ve grabbed them.
So more likely than not, the original network control program that Baltar wrote will be involved in the trial, somehow. The methods for it are there. I guess we’ll know in the opening “previously on…” because that would be going back to the miniseries, which would require a refresher.
What about this. Maybe there is a guilty verdict, maybe he does get airlocked and maybe he’s not a Cylon. What if after he dies he remains on the show as Caprica’s head Baltar? That’s just something I thought I’d throw in there
Caboose, definite possibility there and I’m a fan of head Baltar. He’s a much better dresser. 🙂 That would mean a bigger role and more screen time for Caprica but nothing wrong with that. She’s been impressing me with her acting lately. That bonus scene with Roslin was really good.
Baltar’s the main antagonist. Killing him now would be like Luke killing Poppa Vader in The Empire Strikes Back. Sure there’s still stormtroopers, but we’ve lost the face of the baddies.
Me thinks Johnnie Cochran will get Baltar off the hook.
Baltar’s a pawn.
As a pawn, he has three roles.
To block the movements of the enemy.
To be promoted to a Queen.
Or to die.
… That’s it. His fate, simply put, moves in those three directions. The only question is… Is he blocking the movements of the Cylons, or the humans?
Athenor, nice rundown on your info, the bad news is it has caused me to rethink some of my thoughts. Someone please correct me if im wrong but didn’t the admiral mention to Baltar that the nuke that went off was the one from his lab? We all know that it was, and we must assume that nukes are very high accountability items. Sooo couldn’t there be a case made that even if they can’t prove Baltar gave the nuke away, can’t he still be held accountable for its use if he was the one responsible for it? I know it sounds a little juvenile, but isn’t it still a highly accepted belief that if you are responsible for something, and that item gets lost or stolen (or given away in Baltar’s case) then you are held accountable?
LT. I looked up that case online, the one about the traitor, that was some interesting stuff, I’m gonna have to start watching 60 minutes, thanks for the info.
Sling, not sure about the distinction you’re making between the transcripts and the scripts. Do you mean the scripts of the shows? If so, BSWiki asked for, and was denied, permission to do that, so the project was dropped (Frankly, it’s tough enough to do the podcasts.)
There are some other sites that have partial scripts up. Google is your friend.
13, “Johnnie Cochran” Thanks!
OK Gang, here it goes, we are assuming that this is a real trial. please bear with me, we know after the last episode that they want whatever info they can get from Baltar, hence the interogation (torture), maybe and this is out there, but maybe the trial is a facade to try to get to the truth. Maybe defense council, judges, whatever they put up there are all members of Roslin or Adama’s choosing? I mean if you think about it neither of them has to bide by a courts decision anymore, I mean if they want to keep Baltar in the brig forever who’s gonna stop them, the previous inhabitant of the brig never got a trial. And we all know how the trial that took place on Peggy turned out. I know it is a stretch but thought I would check reactions.
Frank- I think you’re right. It’s not like a nuke is something that you just lose in the wash. “Now where did I put my nuclear warhead?! I know I had it this morning!” I think it was in the scene when Baltar’s sitting on Colonial One and the Admiral is there and Baltar wipes away a tear or something like that. Sometimes I wonder what that man is thinking. He gives a woman who has been beated and raped a nuke to show his love. Forget diamonds, nukes are forever. Now how in the hell is that going to come out the tinniest little bit good? Take all those killed in the initial attacks, any killed from the nuke, any killed on New Caprica (them being caught was a result of the nuke going off), plus Crashdown and beacon Six, and he’s a very guilty man. To be such a genius, he’s such a moron.
And what is it with necks on the show? That’s the fun way to kill/injure someone in Colonial land, I guess. Six and the baby, Six and Boomer, Six and Baltar (dream), Bulldog/pipe and Adama, Gaeta and Baltar, Starbuck and Leoben, Baltar and beacon Six, Starbuck and Leoben, Starbuck and Leoben, Starbuck and Leoben, and Starbuck and Leoben. We’ve had around 45 episodes of the show, so that means there is a neck attack around once every three or four episodes or so. lol
I could go for my “everything is connected” theory and talk about how the neck is the gateway of the body to the mind.. But that would be pushing it. =P
It’s weird, though. In my English 100 class, we’re reading Geek Love, focusing on what it means to be normal, and how one defines ones self. The whole time, all I could think about what Babylon 5 and BSG, and how BSG is going on this MASSIVE self-discovery arc right now. I mean.. look at it. Every frakkin character on the ship is trying to figure out their place, their reason, and if they are strong enough to commit. Yes, even the Cylons.
It’s a good 3rd season element. Why? Because if you really want to set up tension, you blow everything to ever-loving hell right before anyone comes to any revelations.. And unlike before, they have to resolve the issues to survive and press forward. It’s a great redemption/fall from grace angle.
also folks something that should come up-Adama abandoned him to the rule of the cyclons-he didnt fight he ran-and yes he had to ensure the survival of humanity and would have lost-but there were two ships-as he did in the end he couldve said to his son and pegasus go and stayed to fight not return 18months later-it was hopeless as was anything baltar could have accomplished gun to head-they have to draw that parrallel showing them as one in the same if its just about new caprica as i assume since taking a break put so much emphasis on “not MY jails” and exodus was about “survive to fight another day”. Add to that the betrayal of the cyclons by not reporting the virus, dismantlement of the nuke (or so they think and he was going ot try) on New Caprica and one has to wonder how on earth they could convict without being total hypocrits.
b tw on a slightly related side note how the hell does baltar live when six dies? i meanm he got nuked didnt he? if that even killed a cyclon? and shouldnt we assume hes not a cyclon since inner told him so last week? i mean she hasnt been wrong yet depending on the hwole going to be the father of a new generation which can be taken a million different ways (father=messiah/god/chosen one; literla father with Kara; literal father with six; i mean a lot of ways but maybe im wrong)-if hes the one ‘whos name must not be spoken’ would that explain my quandry? I only recaped season 1 so missed a good bit of it (hated original caught on to this in season 2 ep3 seen some recaps)
Lt. Slingshot and Frank, I got to the transcript just by running a Google search on “battlestar galactica miniseries transcript”.
I, for one, proudly welcome our new Google masters…
Baltar giving the nuke to Gina, even if he said it was lost or stolen could definitely be a weapons charge. After all, he is ultimately responsible for it. The Galactica’s retreat could be used to show weakness of the fleet’s leaders, but I think the fact they came back to get everyone might weaken that position. After all, Baltar took off with the Cylons. And I don’t think anyone in the Fleet would believe he was held as a badly treated Cylon prisoner. His return was not intentional. Baltar didn’t even want to return to the fleet.
Gaius, it wasn’t like the nuke was set off right next to Baltar’s home. Indeed, he had time to see the explosion coming before the shockwave, which implies it was quite a ways away (20-30 miles, at least). At that distance, what would’ve killed him was the shockwave of debris and shards of glass… and that’s what Caprica shielded him from.
Now if he was anywhere near the Cloud Nine incident, then I can’t tell you.
The fact that we are discussing the outcome of the trial with good arguments on both sides is a testament to how interesting the trial itself will be. There are good chances he will be proven guilty, good chances he will go off free.
I do not think he will be excecuted, he is way too important to the story, and I doubt very much he will be found to be a Cylon, even an original 5.
Caprica 6 can sink him, but would she be believed? Does Roslyn want the population to know that she escaped death (the supposedly dying leader who would show them the way to Earth) with the help of Baltar and the blood of a half-Cylon baby? Baltar probably knows about Tigh’s suicide bombs, knowing innocent people died, how would the population take that?
Do you just kill him without a trial? There is still the fact that he knows more than anyone how to reach Earth (demonstrated in his interrogation with Gaeta). Also, Roslyn probably wants to nail him on his collaboration to the genocide, if he just dies now, she cant be proven right on that.
I would miss Baltar more than anyone except maybe Adama and Roslyn. I hope he stays with the fleet in some capacity, maybe as a prisoner, because he was not as entertaining during his stint with the Cylons.
If he is guilty, will he get a posch (spelling?) cell in the brig like Sharon did? Heck, that’s better than most of the people on the Gideon got. “You shot them for throwing coffee! What a bunch of poetic cr-aaap!”
I’m a little annoyed by people who keep asking how Baltar survived the nuke back on Old Caprica. As Athenor said a few posts up, the nuke was pretty far away, so it was just a dissipating shockwave of debris that Six shielded him from. Some people keep trying to use this as evidence that Baltar’s a Cylon or something like that, but it seems pretty obvious to me. Baltar’s NOT a Cylon, it’s much more entertaining if he has to live with his guilt.
In the pod cast it is mentioned that Caprica Six’s testimony could be viewed with some measure suspicion. So here is a question that could be asked: “Can Caprica Six prove she is the Six that seduced Baltar on Caprica, up to this point no human has been able to tell the difference between two copies of the same model. Is this were Six will explain how Cylon tell each other apart??
Couldn’t they just ask Sharon? They trust her.
Correction: Adama and Roslin trust Athena, as do some on the Galactica.
The population of the fleet, we have no clue about.
very true
Great comments as usual from all. Baltar will be found not guilty and stays with the fleet. Just to intregal to the show. Besides, if he left, where would that leave all of the great head six shots? Would lose the 18-35 male demographic immedialty…
I have been thinking and want to throw out something to the side – One discovers Earth, One Dies, One is a Cylon……What if they are ALL the same person?
Starbuck discovers Earth, Dies before she can relay message back to fleet…..wakes up in Goo (that would be the good goo, not the pasty, oatmeal stuff).
Just a thought, but what if…..
If kara dies, she won’t wake up on the Ressurection ship. Remember, it is integral to the cylons that the final 5 are not ever, EVER to be revealed to them. They are probably unique models at that.
Assuming Kara is a cylon, of course… And is linked to the final five.
My guess is that she’ll die when they reach the next temple, or whatever… And there, she’ll wake up in ancient goo (which I assume would be even more oatmealy).
Then again, I still feel the final five are different, and able to communicate and do things that others can’t. But hey.
I’m not going to speculate on this. I am just going to wait and see what happens. Then I will have ample time to pick it apart.
I do think I’ll have a lot to say about it, though. In the meantime I am really enjoying reading all of your posts, guys/gals. 🙂
Hmmm… as mentioned earlier, “how did Baltar survive the nuke on Caprica?” Simple. Duck and cover.
“Simple. Duck and cover.”
Essentially, yes.
“Duck and cover” is much maligned because it has been (sometimes intentionally) misunderstood. It was never intended to protect one from a direct nuclear blast, but from the shockwaves, and subsequent damage. That is exactly the situation that Six and Baltar found themselves in during the miniseries, and is exactly why Six’s instruction to “get down” would have helped protect Baltar (if not herself.)
I’m not so sure that Roslin trusts Athena, Adama maybe, and as for the rest of the fleet, if they could vote I’m not sure they would trust Athena either, they gon’t get to see her often or get to know her, so all they know is she is a cylon. So I’m thinking that it would take a pretty good lawyer to convince a jury to trust the word of six in a trial. I’m not even cure they could get a jury to trust athen/sharon let alone one who murdered so many people like six (if she is truly Caprica six).
tanstaafl, Found the scripts where you said they were, thanks for the heads up, I am starting to review them.
Frank, you raise an interesting question.
To our knowledge, Six only killed one civillian in specific: the baby. Beyond that, she wrote a back door into the military’s computer networks. Yes, these are both bad… But relatively speaking, Caprica six doesn’t have a ton of blood directly on her hands.
With that said, her line has probably done quite a lot to kill people, and of course she had to be part of the consensus to attack.
So if a cylon were tried in court… And assuming you treat the cylon as a creature with at least basic rights… Do you treat a cylon as an individual, a “model,” or as the race as a whole? We’ve seen the other side of the glass, and know the Cylon are all three. But the humans haven’t.
Athenor,
Actually, we’ve seen at least some of the humans (the important ones) come around to the idea that individual Cylon/s/z are individuals, thanks to Athena. It will be interesting to see if that still has to be established for the court, though.
It makes me think of something else, though. How sure can Helo be that Athena is Athena? Unless he can tell them apart like she can, can he ever be 100% sure after she downloads into a new body? What if they had sent Boomer back with the baby?
That’s a good point.
No matter what, Athena is in a new body. Any benefits to her pregnancy would be eliminated (and if Adama was smart, Athena’s old body would be put into cold storage for study). Helo can only really trust that Athena is who she says she is by way of Caprica 6 and his own intuition.. And we all know Cylons are master actors.
The thing about the courts is that everyone here assumes that Adama and Roslin will be the ones overseeing the court. This would be -stupid-. He isn’t going to respond to them, and the people of the fleet (who have been quite handily ignored since New Caprica, I’ve noticed) wouldn’t stand for it.
The most likely alternative, all said, is for Zarak to be part of the court. He’s kind of the “face of the people” on the show, with their best interests mostly in mind. He’ll most likely be the main guy to decide Baltar’s fate… and judging by his last appearance (helping Roslin escape during New Caprica, to my knowledge — I missed collaborators), he’s very solidly on Roslin’s side.
As much as some may think that Zarek is out for himself, even though he says he’s for the people (i.e. Season 1 and 2), I think he’s really looking out for everyone this season. I think the New Caprica experience really changed him from searching for power to caring for his own.
I’m wondering if he’ll look for some payback for spending his time on New Caprica in prison and facing a firing squad.
Athenor a makes a good point, however I believe that Zarak would quietly dispose of Baltar a public trail of might not be the best thing.
However, if the Baltar’s trail is brought before a jury; what about the concept of “Jury Nullification�
Jury nullification occurs when a jury returns a verdict despite the evidence presented. The jury in effect nullifies a law that it believes is either immoral or wrongly applied to the defendant whose fate that the jury is charged with deciding.
If Baltar is hated enough among the colonials he might be found guilty no matter what sort of legal wrangling occurs
It’s a strong possibility, and one that Galactica could head down. But the show’s made it fairly obvious in the past that the colonists want life as “normal” as possible… And lynch mobs just don’t seem to be the norm.
Then again, we haven’t seen post-NC colonials. 😉
On Zarak, it’s an interesting distinction. He wants and desires power, and is very Machiavellian, but… He usually comes to his senses and realizes that the ends don’t justify the means. His exposure to Lee and Roslin have proven this to him. The wild card of NC is always there… But I don’t think he’ll try to circumvent the law in this respect.
This is true by the time Zarak is brought in on this it is most likely public knowledge that Baltar is on Galactica.
As to the mob justice, Baltar was dodging the public eye on new Caprica in fear for his life. As when he refused to go to the graduation ceremony for the New Caprica Police back on NC. There are also 200 individuals and families members that have good personal reasons to want Baltar to receive some sort of harsh punishment, for the execution order he signed on NC as well. I do not think the Nuremberg defense (if the colonials have an equivalent) of I would have been shot and I was just following orders will work in Baltar’s favor here. In addition with the recent loss of the ships Adriatic and Carina during the Passage an already cramped fleet is forced in to even closer quarters might be even less forgiving than the fleet that arrived at New Caprica.
i didnt read any of the other comments, but i dont thin theyll discuss 6’s trail enough
These are all some really good points!
I wanted to ask something sort of related. In the Original Series Baltar’s character was the leader of the Cylons, right? In the current series it seems that the characters they brought back from the original have their same jobs/positions in the story (even if the gender is switched!).
I guess RDM could make an exception for this Baltar and keep him a lowly little weasel…but if the pattern continues he should eventually return to the Cylons and take the leadership right? Another reason to fully expect him to survive the trial.
What a desperate, sad state the Cylons would have to find themselves in to put him in charge! Hahah…but he *does* seem to be the best hope of finding Earth.
The commentary is already out for this episode. That’s right, THE COMMENTARY IS OUT FOR THE WOMAN KING, TWO DAYS IN ADVANCE.
Spoilery! I for one am not going to resist the urge. I am going to listen it it.
…one more thing for the juicy gossip lovers: Ronald D. Moore actually says he is drinking absinthe while making the commentary. Yes, the banned drink, absinthe. He also added: “We won’t be discussing the smokes this week”.
I guess he’s decided to have fun while out of the country.
Now I feel like an ass for posting that. 😀
It’s a possibility, but I don’t think RDM will go that obvious….
I mean.. the Cylons already follow one single leader (“God”), and anyone who goes against God’s will is severely punished (D’anna). Outside of that, they act by committee.
But do note, Baltar was heading for a messianic position, thanks to head six. So if Baltar does convince the others that he is a direct voice of God… well.. then he would fulfill the role of the original series.
Today’s cultural reference:
General Hospital: uber-geek Spinelli to mobster hitman Jason, right before
breaking into a hotel where Bad People have hostages, explaining why he
wants to also go in (and provide floor plan guidance, etc):
“I’m like your ace fighter Starbuck to your Captain Apollo”
*cackle*
What is this “digging” stuff? I thought digging was for daggits.
And congrats to Xena Princess Warrior- Lucy Lawless is going to play the lead in ABC’s “Footballers Wives” (yeah, we ripped off the Brits…again). There is life after boxing!
The AARP magazine for Cylons lol. “Swirl like Never Before!” Oh, man, makes me think that someone like Oprah is a cylon. She has to be the one Xena referred to. There’s nobody alive who’s bigger than Oprah. Talk about ratings going through the roof. Forget the lame ass “Colonial Gang” radio show from season 1, the Cylons have Oprah and she could make a battlestar explode with her mind. Of course, it might also be Chuck Norris. lmao
Brian CC – In the original series Baltar actively conspired with the Cylons against the Colonials in exchange for rulership of his own colony after the Cylon takeover. When the Galactica and the rag-tag fleet escaped they gave him a basestar and a Cylon fleet and sent him after the remaining colonials.
They also gave him a Cylon assistant/adviser/watchdog named Lucifer (who looked nothing like Tricia Helfer).
Athenor – Your comment about Athena being in a new body is a good point. But does that mean (and I know I should get slapped for this) that Athena and Helo get to… ah… re experience their wedding night, as it were?
I found this trailer of Six and Head Baltar over at Yahoo that I assume is from this Sunday’s episode. If you go to Tricia’s page and look over to the right you’ll see three clips. Click on the 1st one, Exclusive: ‘Battlestar’ Eavesdropping. Not terribly spoilerish.
http://tv.yahoo.com/tricia-helfer/contributor/500022
Scifi.com REALLY needs to put up the trailers for next week’s eps on their websites. If for nothing else, apparently the iTunes eps don’t come with them.. So.. yeah.
And… Wow, Tan. Red glow all over again… I do wonder if they’ve gotten it on, with or without protection, since that one time. Maybe they are afraid to, knowing a child would be brought into the world. But… it does raise a good question. How do cylons… erm… start?
Wow, two weeks cold turkey and we’re talking about Cylon gynecology? I’m afraid of what’s going to happen after the season ends…
I’ve bitched about the preview commercials before. If they’re not going to put them on the actual episodes, they should put them up separately. Seems like a no-brainer.
I think that Baltar’s guilt or innocence is a non-issue. Just dramatic pause.
The fact is that no one will really want to trust him, but they will want to use him. Guilt or innocence aside, he will be kept on a short leash but will be used for his insight into Cylons, math/physics, etc. The end result is the same… unless they kill him, which is unlikely for many of the reasons already posted.
I haven’t actually listened to about 90% of the RDM commentary for the upcoming episode, so this is a genuine question: has anyone mentioned “insanity plea”? Baltar could feasibly pull that one off if he can convince people he sees things.
I wonder how Six would react.
Does anyone other than Baltar know that he sees Six? I would imagine that even the real 6’s like Caprica 6 don’t know it.
Extremely off topic, but the new BSG video game is coming soon:
http://www.bsgarcade.com/
All jokes about Cylon gynecology aside, one thought did occur to me. Depending on how Cylons resurrect, is it possible that Hera is now the daughter of a virgin mother? Wonder what the Scroll of Pythia has to say about that!
Dear Powindah Infidels,
Baltar is much-misunderstood. We of the Tleilaxu Brotherhood honour our Cylon allies and declare that the unclean humans of BG have deliberately misrepresented this thoroughly innocent and honourable man; unbeliever though he might be! He has the full backing of Count Iblis, Futura the Robot (see ‘METROPOLIS’) and Mr. Roboto himself. Incidentally, all this cod-mythology is just a front – only the True Faith remembers the true space gods!