January 29, 2007

GWC Podcast #27

“Taking a Break…” offered no respite from the multiplicity of personal issues cluttering the minds of Galactica’s finest this week. Highlights: We discuss the crew’s marital strife, ponder Baltar’s somewhat dim future, and debate whether Laura “The Airlock” Roslin still deserves her nickname. It looks like the staff at BSG will take a break next week, but we’ll be here to give you your weekly fix with another listener special.Don’t forget to call in your comments, speculations, and questions at 214-296-9229!

101 Responses to "GWC Podcast #27"
  1. Arktis says:

    Awesome episode = great material = awesome podcast.

    I have to admit, you guys have had a string of “eh..” podcasts with intermittent areas where you were great… at least in my opinion. I’m sure others will disagree. Based on your performance this time around, I’m blaming it on the source material. Now if you guys were really awesome, you could turn crap into gold and sell it as a bogus cure for cancer.


    Baltar in the goo: WOW. I laughed my ass off. Loved it.

    Interrogation/drug usage: I am not comfortable with how comfortable everyone in the show was with this… even Baltar. Don’t like it. Hope I’m not alone.

    Love tetrangle: “Lame. Get back to Baltar.”

  2. Arktis says:

    Almost forgot: Where exactly is all the alcohol coming from? They run out of everything else EXCEPT booze…

  3. Armando says:

    Distilled rocket fuel? Algae scotch? Either way, it all sounds disgusting.

    I agree with you, Arktis, that the love story is played out. I was glad to see the focus shift to Baltar and what he’s going to be going through in the next few weeks. Poor guy (why do I feel bad for him? And am I alone in thinking that Roslin was really fracking scary in this episode? What’s she doing interrogating a prisoner? Even THIS prisoner?).

    I’ll have to listen to the podcast later in the week. It’s a busy one. But, keep up the good work.

  4. Carol says:

    On the booze question, in Joe’s, when Joe said to Tyrel something like
    ‘Any friend of the Captain’s gets the good stuff’, did anyone else flash
    back to the black market episode? Perhaps Lee is still ‘keeping an eye’
    on that and has set up a supply chain for the bar from that?

  5. whiskerfox says:

    Someone I used to work with once told me that there were two businesses that were immune to problems with the economy.
    Hardware stores (You’ve got to fix it), and…
    Liquor stores.

    They’re going to try pretty hard to make sure they’ve got booze.
    And they were making it obvious that the stuff was pretty harsh.
    Remember that Tyrol at least knows how to make a still.

    Algae booze…. Ugh.
    I plan on listening to the podcast starting on my way home tonight.
    It’s got to be better than RDM’s was this week

  6. sween says:

    (First-timer poster, please be gentle.)

    The endless question — is Head Six real or is Baltar just crazy?

    This episode I actually started to wonder if it’s BOTH. Sometimes, he is having a real conversation with a real Cylon… and other times his mind is making her up.

    Specifically, when he was losing it from sleep deprivation and hunger, that was Baltar creating a fake Head Six — creating it so his subconscious could have SOMEONE ELSE TO BLAME for his suicide attempt. Of course, Baltar wouldn’t chose suicide himself — it has to be someone else that made him do it. Always the victim, even in his own suicide attempt.

    But later on, after the interrogation and he’s in the hospital bed, and his mind is more level and he’s more receptive to brain-based Cylon logic, the real Head Six is back. (I so want to see more Head Baltar…)

    Moving on — that scene with Gaeta. Awesome. I think we sometimes forget how SMART Baltar is, and it was great to see that intellect come into play. While scared-out-of-his-mind Baltar is great, I want to see even more of smarter-than-every-other-living human Baltar. Just imagine if he calmed the hell down and decided to reason his way out of this mess? I really wouldn’t put it past him.

  7. ShinyFab says:

    Here’s another one of my wacky theories. Gaeta and Dee are both Cylons. What if Gaeta’s secret was that back when Galactica was first running from the Cylons, Baltar saw him put up the funny transmitter thing. Dee remains close to the President and the Adamas, Gaeta watches Baltar. Another wacky thought is that the FF5 might know they are Cylons, have all along, and know how to hide it well. Maybe they think their chances of finding Earth are better with the humans. Or maybe they don’t want to be part of the Cylon race anymore and they left. Anyway.

    And what was up with the real quick Gods lesson? Does anyone remember what the temple had to do with the Gods themselves?

  8. Ken says:

    Arktis- which drug usage are you referring to? The alcohol at Joe’s, the joint Roslin gave Baltar, or the hallucinogen they injected Baltar with?

    There was virtually no objection to any treatment of Baltar (except sleep deprivation I guess). That is a little disconcerting, but at least they are giving him a trial. We’ll see how fair a trial it is though.

  9. Jay says:

    Just another crazy theory. We were promised a reveal this season. Now maybe that reveal will involve the final five. If the Cylons aren’t supposed to talk about the final five, maybe, just maybe there are actually 17 models. 12 cylons (the 7 we know and five more “undercover”) and then the unspoken of final five. This would allow RDM and the writers an easy out to reveal more cylons without revealing the shows “endgame”. If the cylons aren’t supposed to speak of the final five, and if the final five are so sacred I think it would be kinda strange to leave a note stating that there are 12 models counting the final five. It seems that in the cylon universe the final five are a totally seperate entity, so wouldn’t it be logical that the final five would be left out of the count on the note? It seems to me that if the final five models were counted in the note given to Adama, then that would mean that the Cylons or whoever left the note would think less of the final five and think of them as normal unspecial models. I bet that there are five more models of “skin-job” cylons undercover in the fleet and that the final five are an entirely seperate entity. Maybe the final five arent even cylons at all. Anyway, just a thought. I heard the final five and a Cylon reveal mentioned on the podcast and that little theory of mine hit me while doing the dishes listening to my ipod.

  10. Mark says:

    Concur with ShinyFab – gotta be either Gaeta or Dee.

    In the beginning of “Rapture”, during the near nuke strike, it seems that the Cylons on the Basestar KNEW what was happening inside CIC of Galactica.

    Come to think of it, I think Dee was not at comms during that time – some guy was. So – gotta be Felix.

  11. Chuck says:

    Mark: I’m not entirely in disagreement with the idea of Dee or Felix as possible Cylons, but during “Rapture” the Cylons were able to detect the deployment of Galactica’s nukes. I figured they were assuming (correctly) that Adama’s decisions/intentions were made clear by the status of the nukes.

    On the other hand, was it really just a hatred for what Baltar did on New Caprica that motivated Gaeta’s twice-attempted murder? I’m willing to buy that the second time was heat-of-passion related, but could his motivation the first time have been to prevent Baltar from giving up Cylon secrets?

    For that matter, what did Baltar whisper to him that set him off? Maybe, “You’re a Cylon and I know it?”

    Of course, I still can’t help but suspect that Starbuck’s the Cylon. We’ll see.

  12. Jay says:

    Just another thought. Can Baltar still be the chosen one? In the temple during the rapture episode, Baltar didn’t see the faces of the five, did he? The hybrid said that the faces of the five will be revealed to the chosen one in the temple. As far as I know, Deanna was the only one who actually saw the faces, so either the Hybrid was wrong, which puts into question everything the Hybrid says, or is Deanna the chosen one?

  13. sween says:

    My Final 5 theory of the moment:

    Some people have suggested that the Final 5 are an offshoot from the 12 — sort of a rebel group with their own agenda.

    But what if the final five are not separate from but ABOVE the known 7 models?

    The 7 cylon models we know about don’t seem to have a specific plan, just an *ongoing series of plans* (kill humanity, enslave humanity, steal Earth from humanity, be big poopheads to humanity). However, the Final 5 maybe the cylons that have the singular “PLAN”.

    They may be the overseeing force that — completely unknown to the regular cylons — guide/nudge/manipulate the actions of the cylons *and of the humans* for their own true agenda, which is (in all likelihood) completely separate from the destruction of humanity.

    I see the real Plan being not the destruction of humanity, but the *integration* of the two races into an engineered next evolutionary step — this is why Hera is so important. The Final 5 may see *both* humanity and the cylons as imperfect and incomplete, but the mingling of the two to be the true endgame.

    This would allow Head 6 to be the agent of the Final 5, which would explain while her actions are at times at odds with the obvious cylon agenda. And also explain where the heck Head Baltar came from.

    (What did happen in the span of time between the nuke blowing up Baltar’s house and then him showing up *oh-so-conveniently* in the field where Boomer and Helo had landed? Caprica Six died in that blast. Why didn’t he? And they both had each other in their heads after that. Hmmm…)

    It would also help explain why the cylons seem to develop so many plans — they aren’t the ultimate Big Bad, but the curtain in front of TPTB.

    (Of course, what happens when the cylons we all know and love discover this Plan… and decide that they don’t want to go along with it? Heh.)

    Hmmm… I should stop rambling and actually get back to work.

    Awesome work on GWC!

  14. Mike says:

    I think Mary McDonnell deserves an Emmy for her work in this episode. Just absolutely great acting. The part where she gives him his glasses back was perfect. Has anyone else noticed that the once acrimonious relationship between Tigh and Roslin has turned into some sort of bizarre alliance of anger? Also, it looked to me at least that the relationship between Roslin and Adama is still going on. I thought perhaps they had poured cold water on it, given that they are in charge again.

    Agreed on the love storyline. Time to move on…

  15. Luc says:

    Great episode, especially the arc about Baltar’s interrogation.

    My guess is that they will give him a trial expecting him to be easily found guilty but that it will blow in their faces, either with Baltar’s defense outperforming the prosecution or with some embarrassing revelations about Adama, Roslin, Tigh. Anyway, should make for some good TV.

    The love triangle was well executed but frustrating since that story has not progressed at all in the end. They’ll stay with their respective spouses and still long for each other. Anyway, good to see Dee stand up for herself, although she may regret taking him back again. Apollo is right to think she is good for him, far more than self-destructing Starbuck. Look at me going all soap opera…

    Disapointed though about Caprica Six, what happened to her? Did they flush her out the airlock? Surely no…

    Next episode doesnt sound too good from the preview. Looks similar to “Black Marker” in tone.

  16. Luc says:

    Yeah, Mike, she does deserve an Emmy.

    Also I think Michael Hogan deserves one for the first half of this season. The acting he did on New Caprica was awsome. Best supporting actor.

  17. cavatar says:

    Guys loved the podcast. I also really enjoyed the episode; I think it was one of there better ones in a while. I just wanted to add this one thing and please correct me if I am wrong; but I thought that Roslin’s first act as President was to give clemency for everyone who might have aided the Cylons on New Caprica. If this is true, that means that Baltar is technically not guilty. I just wanted to throw that out there.


  18. Hennessey says:

    This may have been said but I did not read it here. You started off the podcast with the complaint about the two weeks. You even made reference to the fact that it has happened the last several years. Quite frankly I would prefer that a new episode not be released on SuperBowl Sunday. You guys may not be football fans but it makes perfect sense to me not to release new material on a day where 1 billion people are watching a football game. Please remember the demographic for the SCI-FI channel is 18 to 34 year old men. I don’t know if ignoring the fact that the Superbowl is on is the way to go. I thought we were going to miss this problem this year when the show switched to Friday nights but when it switched back to Sunday, I knew it was coming. Other than that – great podcast!

  19. sween says:

    Oooo… good point, cavatar.

    Personally, I can’t wait to see the trial. It’s gonna be a three-ring circus of awesomeness.

  20. Arktis says:

    Chuck said: “For that matter, what did Baltar whisper to him that set him off? Maybe, ‘You’re a Cylon and I know it?'”

    Nice theory, but wrong. RDM talked about what Baltar said in his podcast for this episode, and that wasn’t it. Basically he was just threatening to blame Gaeta for an incident back on New Caprica.

    Oh, and it has now come to my attention that you guys requested audio from me by *name* at the tail end of the ‘cast. By name? Frak. Now I have to come up with something really worthwhile. Just remember: you asked for it. Don’t blame me…

  21. The 13th Cylon says:

    Did anyone think the scene where Adama, Roslin, Tigh, and Cottle ran out of the room when Baltar spotted the camera was just downright wacky.

    And Lee and Kara are clearly a fit. On New Caprica, only Lee and Kara weren’t drunk and passed out. This week we see that Lee has “Tigh tendencies”. The “where’s my frakking ring?!” thing closely resembled Tigh’s “where’s my frakking Ellen?!” thing earlier in Season 3.

  22. Mike says:

    Great podcast, even though the episode was not such a revealer as expected and more comments on that later.

    On the topic of Helo…

    I think you are forgetting about similar actions both personal and moral by other cast members. The things you say about Helo apply to all of them. and it’s simply too harsh to say he belongs in the brig. Helo has displayed very strong morals starting with giving up his seat on the raptor. He is actually one of the most pure and trustworthy crew members and I would agree that he may not do exactly as ordered but would complete any mission with a strong sense of right and wrong which is good in a military situation as orders and plans are in a constant state of flux.

    Placed fleet in danger in starbuck recue mission

    Pulled a gun on tigh, helped roslyn escape

    Stole cylon fighter went to caprica

    Asked Starbuck to go to caprica
    Tried to steal election

    Helped Roslyn escape

    Covered for Boomer

    involved in election theft and drinks on duty

    involved in election theft
    helped roslyn escape

  23. Promethia says:

    Actually, Cavatar, Roslin cleverly offered clemency to “every human in the fleet,” which at the time, Baltar was not. I remember because when she said it I though “loophole!” So, it sounds like Baltar is a fair target.

  24. Elspeth says:

    Hey… I think it was a cigar, not a joint Ros gave Baltar.

    Anyway I am a big fan of the idea that Lee and Kara get together, but… I thought the last look was a little more resigned looking rather than a look of longing. It seemed that Lee taking Dee to the bar was an announcement of Lee’s answer to Kara. See seemed to get the point as she laughed harder than she should have. While watching I was struck by the “look” of both couples. The black outfits made Kara and Anders look like Greasers or something and I started to look for the combs and hair gel.

    More than anything, as much as a fan as I am, I am tired of where they are going with the love square. I find Dee and Lee especially boring. I am slightly annoyed at the previews for this ep as on the podcast the teasers were really more about the “B” story in this ep.

    A few other posts found the torture disturbing. That didn’t bother me so much as the Baltar/Jesus like imagary. With the floating thing. I really didn’t know what to make of that.

    Wow that sounded way more negative that I thougt, for the record I really adore this show.

  25. Pike says:

    Great episode, great ‘cast.

    Anyone notice the kid in the wheelchair in the bar? That was odd. (Ah, listening to the RDM cast now. He was a set-visitor.)

    Also, Jason Bryden was listed as “Knucklehead Dragger #1” Huh? Is that an inside joke, or did someone mess up the titles? (The term is knuckle-dragger.)

    Chuck, I was so with you on the Baltar whisper. Clumsy of RDM to blow that. (Unless, he thought it too obvious and wanted to stamp out that fire…)

    Sween, I kind of read the Homicidal Head Six scene that way too (or re-read it, I was confused when it was happening.)

    Oh, no extra scene on the iTunes version (bastards) what was it?

  26. tanstaafl says:

    On the question of if Baltar knows if Gaeta (or Dee, or Starbuck, or…) is a Cylon or not… didn’t Baltar’s Cylon detector work? (It determined that Boomer was a Cylon, didn’t it?) Who on Galactica was tested? Did anyone besides Boomer test positive for Cylon? Maybe it doesn’t work on the final 5?

    I think there still has to be a Cylon on Galactica somewhere. That Cylon transponder (or whatever it was) they found on Command had to be put there by someone (and I don’t think it was Doral). Then there is still the whole question of where the Shelly Godfrey version of 6 came from.

    As for Baltar’s guilt, Roslin’s offer of clemency was for crimes committed on New Caprica. Baltar’s main crime was back on the original Caprica when he gave 6 access to the defense mainframe. Yeah, he didn’t know he was helping the Cylons but he knew he was giving *someone* access to government secrets. Access that resulted in, what, 20 billion deaths? I’m not sure that “oops” is quite going to cover it.

    Finally, what was the deal with the bonus clip? Why wasn’t it included with the rest of the episode? Surely that was kind of important.

  27. Pike says:

    Oh yeah, almost forgot, No feeling sorry for Dee! Aside from Starbuck, she’s the only one in ‘the quartet’ (as the wrighters call it) who deserves the pain she’s getting.

  28. Audra says:

    Hennessey – You’re right; it does make sense to hold off on BSG during the Superbowl since it’s a no-win contest for viewers. I didn’t even realize the two conflicted. Do 1 billion people really watch the ‘bowl?

    Elspeth – it was a cigar Roslin gave Baltar in the cell, but I think the reference on the podcast was to Roslin and Adama sharing some kind of joint-like thing down on New Caprica earlier in season 3.0.

    Pike – I’m sorry! I feel bad for Dee! I know she went in with her eyes open, especially according to RDM on this weekend’s podcast, but she didn’t deserve a lot of the craaaaap she’s gotten from Lee.

  29. Rich McCarty says:

    ShinyFab says, “And what was up with the real quick Gods lesson? Does anyone remember what the temple had to do with the Gods themselves?”

    I really think this is a question worth pursuing, which may shine light on who the Final 5 are, and what their connection is to the Cylons (and potentially the human race).

    Roslin says that the Temple of Five was dedicated by (or for) five priests of the 13th colony/tribe who were devoted to an Unnamed God (I presume, a god among the Lords of Kobol, or perhaps a different deity).

    As I understand it, the reference to “five” regarding the Temple of Five refers to the priests, while the temple itself is dedicated to The Unnamed God. The Eye of Jupiter, therefore, is only a particular artifact of the Temple, and the extent of its intended function(s), is still unknown. While we talk about the Eye of Jupiter showing the way to earth, it also very clearly allowed D’Anna to “project” or to have an innward revelation of what she took to be the Final Five Cylons.

    The following are my thoughts…which are rather rambling, so stop now and scroll down to the next post, or kindly bare with me through the twists and turns of what we know and what I’m proposing… —>

    The Unnamed God of the five priests is the deity which becomes accepted as ‘the single God’ revered by the Cylons. The Scroll of Pythia, properly understood, is a text of ‘revelation’ offering an account of Kobol, the journey of the 13th tribe/colony to Earth, and foretellings of another journey humans would make to find Earth. I don’t know who or what “revealed” this scripture, but it does seem to offer accurate accounts of ancient history and that which is to come (so long as it is properly interpretted, of course–for example, the “lions head” is actually a nebula, not an actual lions head). The Scroll of Pythia is taken by the humans to validate the existence of many gods. The Cylons, who seem to be interested in the human scriptures, reject polytheism in favor of worshipping “the one true God,” but nevertheless pursue what may be true content in the Scroll of Pythia.

    I am assuming that D’Anna’s expereince in the Temple of Five was genuine (that is, the Final Five Cylon models were really revealed to her). That being the case, I think that both the humans and the Cylons are mis-interpretting the Scroll of Pythia. Each group is still reading it as if it applies only to themselves and not understanding that there is a more inclusive message: Namely, that the Humans and Cylons are part of a determined cosmic destiny, set in place by something or someone probably even beyond the concept of ‘a god.’ Each group has pieces of the puzzle, but they continuously interpret those pieces in ways that validate their religious presuppositions or precepts.

    Unless the writers of BSG throw a massive curve ball, I think that whoever the Final Five Cylon models are, they are still the product of Cylon evolution. That is to say, I don’t think that the Final Five Cylons are some mystical beings from the days of Kobol who have been hanging out in the neather-realms between life and death. I think that they are Cylon models that have the capacity to exist corporeally and non-corporeally. I think it is entirely possible that they exist simultaneously in a non-corporeal and corporeal state. That is, I am imagining that just as the Cylon models we know can “project” any reality they want, I believe the Final Five have a capacity to simultaneously “be” in different realms of existence–they can be white-robed mysteries AND positioned “in the fleet” and elsewhere. This abiltiy gives them a monumental advantage: they cannot be killed–ever. They cannot be boxed–ever. I think that the Final Five probably understand themselves to be continuuing the priesthood of the original five priests devoted to the Unnamed God. I do not think the Final Five have all the answers, but they are well-studied in human scriptures, prophecies, etc. (Even so, I think that they too are a part of the larger drama, and also subject to “destiny.”) They are the architects of “the Cylon Plan,” but it may well be that the price of humanizing Cylon programming comes with the cost of disagreement and disobedience, and that some sort of show-down may occur between the Final Five and the Seven Models.

    Whoever is a Cylon in the fleet, may or may not know. I think it is entirely possible that a Final Five Cylon could exist in the “ethereal realm” and in the fleet, but be programmed not to know, however still programmed to survive for purposes of espionage, or reasons yet unknown. If that’s Starbuck, I don’t think even the Final Five will be ready for the turmoil that will ensue…


  30. ShinyFab says:

    I think Dee was at the comms. That’s how she met Billy. Who funneled her info about the prez. I really wouldn’t be surprised if Dee, Gaeta, and Anders were all part of the FF5. I don’t know why my theory is suddenly expanding. Except that Anders surprised me with his “hey Kara, what about that whole destiny thing?” Sort of out of left field I think. I’m not saying he’s an idiot or anything. Just really weird how he suddenly brings it up. And his movement as Kara’s emotional compass. Some red flags just went up, ya know what I mean Vern?

  31. Dainin says:

    As I recall from the RDM podcast Group Roundtable, Mark Sheppard (Badger from Firefly ~ and a host of guest appearances http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0791968/ is appearing in the last three epiosdes and he mentioned he was going to play a lawyer. Probbaly for the defense I should think. A good time for courtroom drama!

  32. Pike says:

    Audra, “Unless the writers of BSG throw a massive curve ball…” Well, I think that’s all I need to say.

    Dainin, Thanks! I had heard that ‘cast, but didn’t place his name. He’ll be great, no doubt.

  33. Carol says:

    I blinked a couple times when Baltar says he knew Gaeta was leaking
    info to the insurgency. It’s believable, and yet somewhat surprising at
    the same time. Interesting tidbit.

    (all a twitter at being referred to in the podcast, I’m fay-mouse)

  34. Arktis says:

    FYI, I have my listener commentary done, so I am waiting for you guys to drop me a line.

  35. Sean O'Hara says:

    Shiny I have to go with ya there, Anders is my homie and all but I wasn’t expecting that from him. He is or should be her rock but I am not sure who he’s been talking to for him to bust out with destiny talk. Maybe he’s been hanging with Helo.

    Also love the “Vern” comment haven’t heard that from anyone else but me in years!


  36. ShinyFab says:

    I see you’re going Rich. To me there’s something almost too obvious about the FinalFab5 and the five priests. Someone has got to put this all together sometime soon. My first thought is Starbuck with the whole special destiny thing, but I don’t see it jelling that way. I would say dollars to donuts, its Baltar. Maybe he’ll be able to save his hide (again) due to his knowledge of human and now Cylon theology. um. Don’t know how well this will fly, but what if he’s the dying leader? What if head six is a manifestation of something rather lethal like a brain tumor or something? wouldn’t that just be frakkin great. the betrayer is the savior. huh. I could kind of see that . .

    As for Anders and the other supporting roles (Dee, Gaeta, Tigh), I have to be very suspicious of them. I feel like their positions within the fleet give them the perfect combo of mobility and access to the major players: Starbuck, the Adamas, Laura ‘Any Airlock is a Good Airlock’ Roslin, and Baltar. I really almost hope Dee is a Cylon just so she doesn’t appear so completely spineless. ahem. So I think they are great, not as obvious, choices for the FF5. It seems like Starbuck’s special destiny is a way to push the Starbuck is a cylon idea. I would love it if it weren’t the obvious ones. Maybe Cally. Yeah, yeah. Everyone loves Cally. Anh.

  37. BoxytheBoxed says:

    that ep. was awful anf it sucked ME WANT VIPERS

  38. rose says:

    Audra – I’m still solid on Dee as a Cylon. I’m waiting for the reveal of the Cylon in the fleet. Could be Gaeta though – he didn’t mention the Cylon device in the CIC way back in first season.

    I do miss them running from the Cylons in fear.

    I agree this timeslot is problematic and still not sure why the change was made.

  39. rose says:

    I forgot to add that Baltar is an extremely dangerous man who manages to corrupt and destroy things around him. I can’t see any way in which it will benefit the fleet to keep him alive. I would airlock him right away. Why does he deserve a trial when other collaborators were sent out the airlock?

    I’m looking forward to the dirty laundry that will come out at the trial:

    1. The possibility that Adama triggered the Cylon attack? How well known is this idea from the Hero episode?

    2. Roslin attempting to steal the election.

    Is there any proof at all of Baltar’s guilty actions before New Caprica. Even if Six would testify against him, would anyone believe her? As President, he went to New Caprica at the behest of the people, not his own idea. He didn’t know the Cylons would find him.

    Can they prove that Gina blew up Cloud Nine? Does Six have Gina’s memories now – I didn’t think Gina could download.

    Basically, outside of things that happened on New Caprica, which Baltar can claim he was forced to do, is there any proof at all of his actions?

    I wish that they would shave him and cut his hair and clean him up.

  40. Lt. Slingshot says:

    I liked this ep in ways I couldn’t quite put my finger on till I listened to the RDM podcast. After hearing that Eddie directed and did most of the editing cuts I get now why it felt a lot different than say a Rhymer episode. I have new respect for EJO, like he needed anymore. 🙂

    People had brought up Gaeta as a Cylon when we were doing the preview guessing game and I named him for lack of a better alternative but I was feeling the same thing as a lot of you while watching this. I could totally see him trying to get to Baltar because feared he had learned a little too much about the Final Five.

    I can’t remember who just brought up The Oracle (Amanda Plummer) as the one Deanna might have been asking to ‘Forgive me’ from the temple but I kinda like that. This strange intertwining of the religions matches her perfectly from when she was talking to Deanna. Whoever came up with that please remind me because that’s good stuff!

    And yeah I was thinking the same thing as Hennessey. Going up against the SuperBowl would not be a smart move. It is the most watched TV event worldwide every year. The move to Sunday was meant to boost ratings and next week would be suicide.

    Mike is right on. Damn near everyone in the cast has done something deserving of a long stint in the brig. Helo is at the top of the list right now but let’s not forget all the mistakes others have made.

    Maybe this is false hope but I am hoping that we get away from the love quadrangle for awhile. It wasn’t terrible but there are so many more interesting ways to use screen time. I’m ready for another Chief centric show, especially since I think Cally is one of the F5.

    Did anyone see the extended version of the scene with the President and Capria? It was a lot longer than the one aired and basically showed that she swayed the President into giving Baltar a trial and that she would be a witness. I’m looking forward to that.

  41. jpv206 says:

    If Dee were a cylon, she’d be trying to get pregnant. Wouldn’t she?

  42. Pike says:

    Slingshot, yeah, the Olmos directing thing slipped by me, and it did make a difference. Weird RDM reveal was that this was supposed to be a comedy, originally. (OK, Dee’s pain is always a light moment for me.)

    With you on the love-trapeziod, I think they put it to bed for a while quite nicely.

    According to RDM, the next show is Helo-centric. Interesting to see how that plays on this site… Possible bonus, nekkid Sharon!

    Link, Sling, link. iTunes didn’t carry the original ‘extra’ scene. Where did you see the extended version?

  43. The 13th Cylon says:

    Ha! The enduring legacy of the offhand Laura “The Airlock” Roslin comment. Racetrack may not be the Chosen One, but she’s still next in line. Laura screaming to throw him out the nearest airlock had me giggling like a little girl and pretty scared at the same time. And then there was of course the marines holding Gauis’ hands and feet as they took him out in the last shot of that scene.

    And listening to RDM’s podcast, it was cool to hear that Eddie directed this episode. He did “Six Degrees…” which is one of my all time favorites (I love that end scene of Baltar in the spinny chair with admitting to Six that he rigged the Cylon detector”). Also he mentioned some scenes getting toned down, and I happened to see a few leaked pictures a while back and the whole burned up kids thing was waaaay more startling that it was on the actual episode. Also Baltar licked Gaeta- we just saw a quick whisper thing going on. That weirded me out a bit. Actually a lot.

    And OMG! I thought the same thing about silly Gaeta! Stupid boy, don’t be trying to hide the camera and keep glancing up at it! And if you’re going to stab the man with a pen, do it in the jugular. lol

  44. The 13th Cylon says:

    Heliocentric, lol!! Explains why the next episode is called “The Woman King”.

  45. Lt. Slingshot says:

    Oops I forgot Shiny’s comment. Nice point on Anders. I mean he’s an athlete, a stand up guy with a brain and a pragmatist about his situation. But that razor sharp break down of destiny went right to the mark. Something not right there…

  46. Lt. Slingshot says:

    Pike I’ve been searching for that clip but no luck yet. It was the bonus clip over at SciFi that is only up right after the show. 🙁

  47. Luc says:

    Pike, if you want to see the bonus scene (here in Canada they didnt show it), I saw it at http://galacticabbs.com/index.php?showforum=59.
    They have lots of other Galactica Vids as well. But all in lousy 320×240.


  48. Luc says:

    Oh, supposedly it’s at Scifi but again, in Canada, the link does not work. What do they have against Canucks? Many of the casts are from here.

  49. Lt. Slingshot says:

    Ok I’m feeling nutty

    Why Gaeta is a Cylon.

    1. After Baltar, who is the super brain in the fleet?

    2. As Baltar was pointing out the small error in his calculations that’s when he attacked him. Can’t let the humans get the real coordinates.

    3. Although everyon liked Gaeta before New Caprica, who is he really close to?

    4. He was not one bit nervous when he was about to be shot out the launch tube. Why should he when he would resurrect?

  50. Lt. Slingshot says:

    Luc, nice find on the link. Many thanks!

  51. The 13th Cylon says:

    LT, I think the pre-airlock thing was because he wanted to leave with dignity. He wasn’t going out like Jammer and begging them to save him. It’s a lot like Cain was when she knew she was going to die. You can be like Jammer and beg or you can be like Cain and say “Frak you”. Either way you’re dead and they’re going to remember your last moments as the ones that define you. Then there’s also Adama’s “It’s been an honor” quote, he wasn’t screaming for the gods to save him, he knew that nothing he could do would change the outcome.

  52. Lt. Slingshot says:

    13th I think you may be trying to protect one of your own. Told ya I was feeling nutty 😉

  53. Manicorn 7 says:

    Hey everyone, I really enjoyed this last episode (directed by Edward James Almos no less) and as always I love the podcast! Such a blast to jump online and come to this site and have a good hour of fun reading and speculation. I just dig it. My wife will watch BSG with me, but she can’t be bothered to discuss it afterwards. You guys are the saviors of my inner geek (okay, may be its my outer geek at this point).

    Rosyln was so great in this episode. I’d really been missing her presence. Plus it was nice to see her go so ballistic on Baltar and to see her yell. I’d been thinking some about her character lately too in regards to the “prophecy (sp)” and that damn book of Pitihia. Wasn’t it that first religious leader who told Rosyln about the leader guiding them on the path to Earth and not surviving…? We’ve had some fun teasers for 3.5 and they left us with three big questions…”One will die, one will realize they are a Cylon, and one will find Earth”. While there has been a great deal of plot/tease to indicate that Starbuck may bite the dust or be one of the final five, I’ve been thinking that it might just be a roose and that the “big change” that will happen at the end of the season will be the death of Rosyln. Zarek would become the Prez (how fun would that be…?). Starbuck will find Earth somehow, and who will be the Cylon….dunno. (sorry if this is starting to ramble on a bit). Mary McDonnell is a fine actor and I could see her going out with a bang this season. May be the chucked’ (sorry Chuck) the prophecy or feel its resovled somehow with the Hera cancer cure, but I could see it coming back….

    Just food for thought. All the best to everyone. Rock on.

  54. Pike says:

    Nice one, Luc. I can see why they wanted to get that scene out there.

  55. Pike says:

    Manicorn, I can’t believe I forgot about Roslyn as dying leader. And the leader is supposed to show the way to earth, right? So it looks like Roslyn might do two out of the three. (Let’s hope she doesn’t wake up in a tub of goo for a trifecta.)

  56. Elspeth says:

    I always thought of Gaeta as somewhat inconsequential to most of the story. He was there when they need a subcharacter to play both sides among other things… You know, someone in the background to show that it is going on, but not one of the more main characters whereas it would make it into more of a main plot point. Kinda like the red shirts on the bridge in Next Generation next to Data. They would say stuff occasionally, but we knew it wasn’t that important and filtered it out. The thing that really strikes me that he might now be one of the Cylons is that he has been opperating more or less off the radar. I find it really strange that he wakes up in a sweat for no apparent reason to visit Baltar. Lt., I also found it strange about the calculations. Wha? And I really can’t figure what the motivation was for saving him one day and trying to kill him the next.

    Last point, the weird music in the opening seemed to overlay only certain characters, kinda like “head” music. Does anyone remember who they showed the music with besides Baltar and Gaeta?

  57. Mike D says:

    This is probably just a story flaw, but…

    Here is an interesting thought on the “Gaeta is a cylon” theory in episode 100 MINI SERIES when they discover the cylon device under the dradus console Gaeta says that he first noticed it a couple weeks ago. This is probably just a story / filming flaw but they show the console several times and the device is not there, which I found puzzling. If not a flaw that would mean 2 things:

    1) Gaeta is lying about seeing it which means he probably planted it.
    2) If he planted it he would remember planting it, unless like boomer in WATER he is a sleeper, but that wouldn’t fit with the final five.

    It also seems that the final five are kinda like the ascended beings in stargate, so I don’t quite buy a big reveal of finding out who is the next cylon. I see a reveal as finding out more about the final five, how do they relate to the other cylons, what are their motivations etc. Seems kinda lame to just keep unveiling cylons.

    With all that said Adama is tied in there somehow, like starbuck and the eye of Jupiter.
    In episode 100 he give a speech:
    “the day comes when you cant hide from the things that you’ve done anymore.”

    Then later on ragnar station Yoman says:
    “sooner or later the day comes when you cant hide from the things you’ve done.”

    So how did Yoman and Adama wind up saying exactly the same thing?

  58. Mike D says:

    Sorry I meant, Leoben not Yoman.

  59. Pike says:

    Mike D, I was racking my brain trying to remember who Yoman was…

    One possible explaination, Boomer had some kind of memory tranfer thing going on (which is how Athena could share those memories.) What if her last D/L was after the Adama speech?

  60. Nathan says:

    So, while watching the ending of this episode, my brain went somewhere completely different than most people’s. And while it may be nothing more than a theory, or interpretation, it seemed so obvious to me that I was shocked my girlfriend didn’t get it – I went straight to the web expecting the boards to be buzzing with it, but I seem to be alone in what I saw. Let me throw this out there:

    Gaeta is tossing in his bed as we hear a soothing lullaby on the ship (GREAT opening, by the way – EJO is a wonderful director!!).

    The restless Gaeta goes to the brig to see Baltar, but it’s never quite explained what his motivation is.

    Later, as Gaeta enters the brig to talk to Baltar, the scene is intercut with the scene between Apollo and Dee. Baltar leans very close into Gaeta as Dee takes Apollo’s hand. Baltar says to Gaeta something along the lines of “We all have secrets…perhaps I should tell them…” and that sets Gaeta off. Roslyn calms Gaeta very quickly by assuring him that she believes he went to see Baltar to kill him. Almost soothing him.

    Of course, he’s then clocked in the face by the old man, which was great!

    Now, considering

    – the lack of solid motivation for Gaeta visiting Baltar in the beginning of the episode

    – Gaeta’s history of being Baltar’s assistant, both on Galactica and on New Caprica

    – His general obtusive nature (like he’s either very shy or has something to hide)

    – His loyalties lie with the humans (he’s assisted them on multiple occassions), though he stays near Baltar and seems torn by this

    – The decision to cut between a romantic scene and the Baltar/Gaeta scene very quickly, even though they seemingly have very little to do with each other

    I think Gaeta may have been literally sleeping with the enemy. Baltar is slimy and sexually deviant enough to allow it to happen – in fact, he may have caught on to Gaeta’s tendencies and exploited them to keep him around in case it would come in handy later. So if he’s ever found out, he won’t go down alone. And now, it’s coming in handy. In fact, the more I think back to previous episodes, the more it makes sense for me.

    I think this may come out during the trial and we may see the last of Lt. Gaeta.

    Does anybody else see this?

  61. Mike D says:


    “Roslyn calms Gaeta very quickly by assuring him that she believes he went to see Baltar to kill him. Almost soothing him.”

    I think Roslyn was distracting him and I actually don’t think Gaeta went there to kill Baltar. It looked more to me that what Baltar said to Gaeta set him off. And what did Baltar say? Well another big secret (RDM:supposedly it was related to a cut story line) personally I think it could be left open for now and scripted later as needed, but it would be something that he only wanted Gaeta to hear, “there are far worse things than being a traitor…”

    Gaeta slept with Baltar, I think that is reaching, but definitely entertaining…

  62. Pike says:

    Nathan, now THAT would be a twist. Possibly a swirl…


  63. cavatar says:

    Has anyone considered that the next Cylon reveal might be someone who was killed off…like Ellen Tigh maybe? That would be a good way for the writers to frack with Tigh.

    Also, if you can get Baltar amnesty that the rest of the fleet enjoys; then one can argue that there is again no grounds for removing him from office. I know some of you guys who have been posting for a long time here will say I keep coming back to this; but he was never removed from office. They assumed he died. Laura presidency is illegal and Baltar is still the legal president.


  64. Luc says:

    I also caught the podcast and got that Baltar whispering to Gaeta was from a cut story line, but I thought that and Gaeta’s reaction were some of the highlight of a very good episode. It opens up possibilities for Baltar exploiting Gaeta some more.

    Having seen the bonus scene, I wish they had put it in the regular episode since it goes a long way to explain why Roslyn would go for a trial. She wants to nail him for the genocide, not just what happened on New Caprica.
    I think I’ll try to get that episode off the web, there’s a lot ponder here.

    Oh, and Pike, I LOL about the swirl reference!

  65. Mike D says:

    Regarding the Baltar trial, I don’t really see where Baltar is really guilty of more than being used by six, a downfall of his own playboy superego lifestyle. Interestingly, I already had the impression from New Caprica that Baltar was allowing Gaeta to feed the resistance and doing what he could in a Baltar way (He said to Gaeta about his attending the graduation ceremony “Try not to look so disappointed”).

    Baltar is about Baltar and he certainly was a poor politician, but he has a good side in a strange way. What a great character, he is so smart and intuitive but also very naïve, when blinded by his own ego. When escaping from Caprica and the lady had the glasses on her head and said can you help me I seem to have lost my glasses the look on his face should I do this or not, then the fear when Helo says aren’t you Baltar “I haven’t done anything, this lady has ticket number 47”

    The pardon is a big one and should come into play at the trial, and ultimately I think Baltar has to wind up back with the cylons, but he is so much more entertaining when he is with the fleet.

    Baltar is trying to figure out the cylons, the final five, the location of earth and God, but he is doing it for Baltar and to satisfy his own curiosity and fascination, not to save the cylons or the human race.

  66. Silverhawk says:

    Gaeta may be a good candidate for a cylon reveal, but I think whomever it is hinges around D’anna’s comments – “You…..Forgive me, I had no idea”.

    This is obviously a character that she had interaction with. I grant that she may have had that interaction with Gaeta on New Caprica, but did she do something to him where she would ask for forgiveness? If so, I don’t remember it.

    The obvious plot ploy is to direct our attention to Baltar, as a result of her torture, but I think this is to obvious. So, where does that leave us? Who did her character interact with where she would ask for forgiveness.

    I throw that question to the group for speculation. Other than Baltar, I can not remember an interaction that would have prompted that response.

    On a side note – I really like the idea of Tom Zarek being a cylon…..there just has to be some symmetry in that that would intrigue both RDM and Richard Hatch. That, however, goes nowhere toward explaining D’anna’s remarks.

  67. Pike says:

    Hmm, Zarek a cylon? Not sure where they would go from there. D’Anna’s remark would still make sense—he was imprisoned for the entire occupation and then sent off to be executed. I think that deserves an apology.

  68. Pike says:

    Ever wonder what happened to the old Cylon Centurions?

  69. Ressa says:

    I think part of Gaeta’s motivation for wanting to kill Baltar is not only the suspicion he was subjected to during the collaborators interrogations but also his disgust with himself for ever having admired the man.

    I’ve been watching old season 1 episodes and if you’ll remember, Gaeta at one point really idolized Baltar. He was thrilled to become Baltar’s assistant on the Cylon detector and very much on Baltar’s defense during the whole Shelley Godfrey framing. He even told Baltar “I just couldn’t believe a man like you would do such a thing” or something along those lines. Imagine if your idol then turned out to be a weak, snivelling puppet who was willing to sell out the whole human race, and then YOU were accused of collusion with him? I’d be pissed too.

    Starbuck seems so nonplussed about the whole Eye of Jupiter thing. If I were her, I’d be going crazy trying to figure out and learn more about the design! And has Roslin eased out of her religious phase now that she’s cured? Because she hardly ever talks about the Scrolls or the gods anymore.

  70. fnord says:

    I was thinking Zarek the Cylon as well.. That would work so long as the Cylons were infiltrating the Colonies longer than the two (?) years Caprica was. Zarek does has a fair bit of background , is known by Colonials (well Dee and Lee anyway) on sight way back in 1st season, so was a prominent figure. (Even wrote a Book that Lee had claimed to have read) That fact that he such a figure in Colonial politics makes me doubt it, but hey the writers can rec-con things…

    I must say a tad annoyed at Sci fi’s bonus scene malarky, having to go to the web to watch the rest of the episode kinda rubs me the wrong way…

  71. tanstaafl says:

    Mike D said:
    “Regarding the Baltar trial, I don’t really see where Baltar is really guilty of more than being used by six, a downfall of his own playboy superego lifestyle.”

    Baltar gave Six access to the defense mainframe in exchange for “favors”. You are right that he didn’t know that she was a Cylon, but he knew that he was giving *someone* access to restricted government computer systems for *something*. Whether he thought she was a Cylon, a freedom fighter/terrorist working for someone like Zarek, an industrial spy or simply someone with a mainframe fetish is irrelevant. He knowingly gave someone access to restricted government systems. That’s pretty much treason no matter how you look at it. The fact that what happened makes him an accessory to attempted genocide is beside the point; he’s still guilty.

  72. ShinyFab says:

    Actually, I thought Gaeta meant to attempt killing Baltar from the beginning. He was looking around all out inviting Baltar to see what was going on. I think Baltar knows a secret all right and I think Gaeta wanted to make it look as though it were some sort of ‘crime of passion’ so to speak. The way Gaeta behaved, I was positive the whole point of the scene was Gaeta’s attempted murder of Baltar and making it look like a spontaneous thing.

    I’m sticking with my Cylon triumverate: Gaeta, Dee, and Anders. There is just something too odd about Anders sudden brain wave, Gaeta’s trumped up attempt on Baltar’s life, and Dee’s strong grasp on Lee. Not all of the FF5, I’ll grant you. But they just don’t add up any other way.

    PS – I don’t believe Lee is in it for the long haul. He was ready to drop Dee like yesterday’s news (twice) and just kept her around because she said yes when all he wanted was Kara. I don’t believe he loves her. Yes, people may say he does. But he’s pretty much just a whiny baby who wants it all. I know someone’s going to be annoyed by that, but there it is.

  73. The 13th Cylon says:

    I hope the Baltar lullaby is on the Season 3 soundtrack. I’ve had that “baby counting sheep” part stuck in my head for the past 2 days now. Damn you Baltar!! Speaking of which, the mystery of what head Six actually is continued when she kicked the bed out from under him. Hmm…

    Oh yeah, I’m hating the Super Bowl. The space Nazi says “No BSG for you!”. But the good/great news is that BSG had a bump in ratings this past episode past the 2 million mark again (up 13%, which is huge) and this new time slot has lead to a gargantuan boost in the 18-49 crowd, especially among women. So if a little shipper stuff helps the show last longer, I’m all for it. Typically a series is like a movie franchise, the next show’s ratings is reflected in how bad/good the previous episode was. I think that in two weeks it might even be better since “BSG Cheers” was an exceptionally great episode. Anyway, the (projected) 1.8 rating that the episode got was tied for the highest of the seaon with “Occupation”.

  74. The 13th Cylon says:

    Check that, it was a 1.9. Even better, that will be the best of season 3. Yeah, Friday lost a bit of it’s magic, but it’ll do. That is a huge increase over some of season 3.0’s 1.3 (a series low) and 1.4’s. This is back up around the ratings for the beginning of Season 2.5 with the Pegasus arc.

    I feel like some dirty politician watching the numbers come in! lol

  75. Carol says:

    That’s great news, 13th! I was encouraged when RDM casually mentioned
    that Joe’s will be used into next Season, as well.

  76. eric-michael says:

    here’s a question I’ve been meaning to ask for a long time now … do you think as viewers who may have watched to orginal series, or heard of the orginal series are driven by some of THOSE assumtions? I mean in reality we don’t know a thing about the cylons and their histories with humanity. Could this virtual intelligence have existed on cobal as well as on on the colonies? I mean space travel existed, why wouldn’t the technology to create the cylons? And if the cylons were created a long long time ago, doesn’t that call into question what exactly the Lords of Cobal actually were? haven’t we already seen that these lords probably existed? that’s sort of what has gotten me to thinking. Perhaps the cylons and humanity has a common history we know nothing of.

  77. Cro Magnon says:

    Eric-Michael, well I have not seen much of the original series. But AFAIK in the original series the Cylons were created by Reptilian aliens while there where created by humans themselves in the new series. So I do not think that most people are driven by assumptions from the old series. I asked the same questions like you before here. Obviously there is some connection between events the past (described by Pythia etc.) and the present events. Otherwise the temple of five and Final 5 connection and “all this has happend before” would make no sense.

    Sween, regarding the true nature of the Head 6 and the final 5. I think you might be right. If the Head 6 would just be a figment of Baltars imagination this wouldn’t explain the Head Baltar of Caprica 6. Also it wouldn’t explain how Baltar could have learned about the whole “shape of things to come” story line, that he has to guard Hera, that there is only one true God etc.. Nobody else was telling Baltar about the Cylon religion. The humans didn’t know about it until they captured a copy of Leoben (the one who Starbuck tortured). So how could he come up with that in his head if Head 6 were just in his imagination?

    Also when they were on Kobol Baltar “projected” that he was with Head 6 in the old opera house. But D’Anna saw exactly the same setting in a vision when she was constantly killing herself. In that vision she saw the Final 5 would be getting revealed to her and then she saw it again when she went down to the Temple of 5 and stepped into the light coming from the supernova. So how could Baltar see the same inside of an opera house on Kobol which D’Anna saw in the Temple of 5? An opera house destroyed several thousand years ago.

    When Head 6 told to Baltar she is an “angel of god” it is probably close to the truth. Whatever that is. Maybe telepathy or something else the Final 5 use to communicate :-). I don’t know. But there must be some form of “communication” unknown to the regular 7 cylons. Otherwise the whole vision thing of D’Anna wouldn’t make sense.

    Cravatar, regarding Baltars rights you are right. Roslin issued clemency for all collaborators and instead appointed a truth commission. Also, isn’t he still the President of the Colonies? Anyway, he gave knowingly a nuke to a Cylon. Some humans of the group who worked with the Pegasus 6 must know about it. But probably they will not tell about it. BTW, when they searched Baltars lab and quarters for the route to Earth didn’t the notice that the nuke they gave him was missing?

    Tanstaafl, the Cylon detector of Baltar worked but when he talked with Head 6 we learned that he intended to lie about the results and let everyone pass. We don’t know how many people he tested (the process was very slow) but we know that he doesn’t know who the final 5 are. We also do not known whether they have restarted the tests or not.

    Rich McCarty, interesting thoughts about the nature of the Final 5.

    Fnord: I agree, Zarek is not a Cylon. He was 20 years or so in prison and in a cell on a prison chip when the Cylons attacked. It would make tactical sense for the Cylons to have some known terrorist 20 years in prison.

    As for who is going to die: the Adamas, Roslin, Baltar, Starbuck, Tigh will not die. All others have to be careful. 🙂

    Some questions I have:

    – When Baltar asked for the nuke didn’t Adama say that there were only 4 nukes left aboard Galactica? Or were it 6? One was given to Baltar and later used by the Pegasus 6 to destroy Cloud 9. But anyway, when they were threating to nuke the algae planet they had 7 missiles.

    – Who gave the note about the 12 cylon models to Adama in the mini series?

    – When Starbuck returned with the Sharon copy (the later Athena) and Helo from Caprica with the arrow she jumped back directly to Kobol and not to the fleets last position from where she started with the captured raider. How did they know where Kobol was and that the part of the fleet with Roslin was there?

    – We were never told how the humanoid Cylons were created and took over the Cylon government. Who was ruling the Cylons before the humanoid Cylons were created?

  78. Moe says:

    Judgement at Nuremberg arc coming up.
    Baltar as Burt Lancaster
    Caprica Six as Marlene Dietrich
    Who gets to be Spencer Tracy? Adama can’t be the judge since he will be a witness right?

    Defense will use the presidential amnesty, that a gun was literally to his head, the series of arguably illegal actions by Roslin, Adama and company. I am sure that the Colonial Constitution prohibits torture for example. Baltar has a decent legal argument. Might have a little trouble finding an impartial jury…

    More and more I think they are heading for a finale that merges the humans and cylons into one new race and that the show takes place in either our far future or distant past. I would bet may quarters that there will not be a military resolution with one side or the other dominating / destroying the other.

  79. tanstaafl says:

    Moe said:
    “More and more I think they are heading for a finale that merges the humans and cylons into one new race and that the show takes place in either our far future or distant past.”

    Hmmm… That just inspired a thought.

    Maybe “Final Five” doesn’t mean “the five we don’t know about yet”. Maybe it means “the Final Five survivors after everyone/everything else is destroyed”.

    After all “All of this has happened before, all of it will happen again.” Suppose the last time around there were only five survivors (who maybe built the temple?) which would imply there will only be five survivors this time around.

    Suppose the show is taking place in our distant past. The Colonials and Cylons get to Earth and find it a perfect world, but uninhabited. There is a final battle and most of them are killed or destroyed with only a handful of survivors making it to the planet.

    Five couples, each consisting of one human and one cylon. The “final five” of each race, giving birth to a new species… us.

    Who would they be? We know Athena and Six are Cylons and there is heavy speculation on Cally, Dee and both Starbuck and Anders, so let’s guess:

    Baltar/Six (?)


  80. Jay says:

    tanstaafl, this is a interesting theory. I agree that when the fleet and Cylons arrive at Earth it will be in the far future or distant past. I vote for the past myself. I’m not so sure on the five couples idea. I agree that the final five will play a key role in what happens when Earth is found. But I think the final five are not Cylons at all. I think they are univseral beings who have been around for a long time. They played a role in developing Cylon culture, maybe even made the skin jobs, and the actions of the 13th tribe. They are playing a role in the new actions of the fleet and the new quest for Earth. I think Starbuck is one of them. How else would they appear to D’anna in a temple built by humans?
    What do you think?

  81. Pike says:

    Cro Mag, Pegasus provided supplies for Galactica, possibly including some nukes. Definately some Vipers.

    Who gave the “12 models” note is as yet unanwered. Perhaps Baltar, which would be an interesting card for him to play at trial.

    Not sure about the Kobol thing. I thought they had located it before Starbuck left, but I’ll have to check on that.

    The Cylon/s/z were created by man. I think you’re flashing back to the original, where they were the creations of a (now extinct) reptillian race.

    Tans, interesting idea. That would give “Final Five” a different twis-, er, spin. Problem that I see is that the shapes of the five seem to be adultish in size. Also, how would Three recognize any of them? And why appologize.

  82. aiko_aiko says:

    There is also the possible hybrids (Hylons?) that could play a role in the F5. We have a pure hybrid, Hera, and Roslyn with her Cylon tainted blood, and Athena with human tainted blood.

    We know the Cylons think the future is Hylons, will we see more acceptance of this on the human side?

  83. Cro Magnon says:

    Pike said:
    “Not sure about the Kobol thing. I thought they had located it before Starbuck left, but I’ll have to check on that.”
    Yeah, you’re right. She left for Caprica in season 1 (Kobol’s last gleaming, part I) when they just had found Kobol. But still, when she returned with Helo and Sharon in season 2 (Home, part I) they didn’t know that the fleet was split and that Roslin was at Kobol. Yet they magically appeared there.

    Pike said:
    “The Cylon/s/z were created by man. I think you’re flashing back to the original, where they were the creations of a (now extinct) reptillian race.”
    No, I’m not refering to the original. What I meant was that we know that the mechanical Cylons, the toasters, are not (very) intelligent. They are just following orders by the humanoid Cylons. The baseships are controlled by humanoid Cylons (the hybrids) as well. But we are told that 40 years ago the Cylons build by men started a first war against the humans. But back then there were no humanoid Cylons. Only toasters. So who gave the orders to the toasters and the baseships 40 years ago? Did the humanoid Cylons kill off the former (mechanical) Cylon ruling class?

  84. Pike says:

    Cro Mag, oh now I gotcha. I think the implication is that the original toasters were intelligent, they evolved (upgraded, essentially) into the humanoid models, and then decided they needed their own toasters, which were then built with intellectual limitations to prevent “their own robot rebellion.”

    Similarly, the basestars were probabally originally mechanical but later joined with a humanoid variant into a “hybrid” basestar/humanoid.

  85. Cro Magnon says:

    Pike, ok, I thought about that too. But still it doesn’t make sense to me that they are just upgrades. Every humanoid Cylon is obviously a distinct person. I doesn’t seem that their personalities were transfered (downloaded) in the past from toasters to a new humanoid bodies. Ok, maybe they keep silent about their previous lifes as toasters to not to be embarrassed. 🙂

    Anyway, I believe that the Cylon God is responsible for the sudden evolvement. I think the Cylon God is real in some way whoever that is. Maybe it turns out Baltar is it himself. 🙂 .

  86. Miss New Crobuzon says:

    I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed this week’s podcast. I just got an iPod and Galactica Watercooler was the second ‘cast I subscribed to (after Moore’s of course.)

    I loved this week’s episode. Roslin is scary when she yells! And any episode where Gaeta gets more than two lines is good for me. I’ve liked his character since season one and I liked the way he’s been given more to do as a character. I hope next episode we get to see how big of a black eye Adama gave him. The sound effect on that punch was a little nauseating. I think it’d be great if unassuming little Gaeta was a Cylon all along. BUT – I think if he really was a Cylon, he’d be much better at killing people. He sucks assassination, but I give him points for resourcefullness. If he actually killed Baltar with that pen, I’d say it was even more impressive than flashlight-wielding Adama beating Leoben to death at Ragnar.

    Looking forward to more Galactica Watercooler!

  87. fnord says:

    Well Cro I was thinking a similar thing, especially after rewatching Torn the other day. In that episode the Cylons mentioned a genetic pool that they are all created from. (Hybrid , raiders etc included) They are also leaning very heavily on the Kobol myth this season, esp the concept that one of the Lords broke with the rest of them and left. (Poss the Cylon god)
    With some recent events (the virus, the final five , the Hybrid’s prose, the creation of the Hylon) seems to indicate that the Skinjob Cylons do not fully understand their origins , biology or evolution as of yet. That indicates to me that they have had a “hand up” help from their god , or…
    Maybe they found the Tech that they used to evolve, maybe the remnants of the “lost” lord of Kobol (we don’t know what sort of tech they had on Kobol back in the day) which they reverse engineered to enable their evolution. Now these secrets may sit with the final five , maybe they are the missing link or those cylons that actually have the “plan”.
    I’m not sure if the Cylon god is “real” to the extent that he may turn up in the show, the lords seem only present in visions, ruins and portents, they have a hand in things but it would take the show in a totally new direction if they are demonstrated to be real people that the characters can interact with. (Or characters that can turn up in lets say a ship o light lol)
    Anyways thats me rambling…

  88. rose says:

    If you ever need a good guest for the show, I suggest, Jacob, the recapper of BSG from television without pity. I don’t know him or if he would agree, but he has great insights into the show and the characters. I think you guys could have an interesting conversation with him about the show.

  89. Pike says:

    rose, excellent suggestion! He’d be great as a season-recap guest after 3.5

  90. Les Vogt says:

    Just now listening

    Don’t foget when 6 said “I’ll always havve your heart and I can pull it right out of your chest” and when she put his head into a mirror and the whole Shelly Godfrey episode. He’s not just in love with her…he’s terrified. Every time he shows some ndependence she controls him.

  91. Pike says:

    OK, gotta gush for a minute here.

    Rose is spot on, you’ve got to try to get the TVWoP guy on. I’ve run across his BSG take before, but apparently it was just the placeholder “what I just saw” entry and not the seventeen pages of snarky/insightful analysis. I’m reading his take on “Rapture” right now, and all I can say is “Frak! The boy has some serious chops.”

    Les, it’s intersting to see when she physically interacts with his environment, I don’t think we’ve seen anything yet that indicates Six has a physical presence, but we can’t rule it out either…

  92. Atersolitas says:

    Cro Magnon, you made some really good points, especialy about the note letting Adama know there were 12 Cylons. I assumed when I first saw the miniseries that it was Baltar that left the note, but I’m not sure now. But here’s the thing – how did Baltar know there were 12 Cylon models? I mean, I thought Head 6 told him, but if she is just a figment of his imagination, it’s doubtful that he would have known that (although he’s either made accurate leaps of intuition in the past or been led by Head 6). I guess it is possible that Adama disseminated the information to the fleet (and that’s how Baltar knows), but it doesn’t seem like anybody else talked about it.

    Also, I’ve not understood Baltar’s obsession with whether he was a Cylon or not – I would imagine that he would have tested himself when he had the Cylon tester (true, he didn’t think at the time he was a Cylon, but it seems fair to suppose that he would have used himself as a baseline – after all, the only one he could be sure of at the time wasn’t a Cylon was himself). So if he did test himself, why would he think the results were false? They certainly proved to be right in Sharon’s case.

  93. sween says:

    “Also, I’ve not understood Baltar’s obsession with whether he was a Cylon or not – I would imagine that he would have tested himself when he had the Cylon tester”

    I figure if they didn’t SHOW him testing himself, they (the writers) can say he didn’t.

    And Baltar IS self-centered enough that I could see the thought never crossing his mind that he could be a cylon… until it was too late and he no longer had access to his working cylon tester.

    Is it common experimental practice to use the experimenter’s own genetic material for testing purposes? He would have to use whatever cylon samples they could get get a hold of (Boomer, Leoben?), but as for human samples, where would he go to get samples? Or would he just use standard published genetic mapping available to Colonial researchers? Hmmm… things I don’t know…

  94. Carol says:

    Atersolitas, I think that it was Caprica 6 who told Baltar about the 12,
    not Head 6, in the mini-series, before the shock wave hit the house.

  95. Pike says:

    Carol is spot-on. It was when she woke Baltar and random chick up and told him she was a Cylon. “There are twelve models. I’m number six.”

  96. jay says:

    Just a thought. If the final five were never spoken of, holy, and off-limits to the cylons, doesn’t it seem odd that whoever left Adama the note claiming there were 12 models would include the final five in the count? That just doesn’t sit right with me. If the final five were so holy I highly doubt that whomever left that note would belittle the 5 by adding them to the count of skinjob cylons. Also, how can Baltar still be the chosen one? The hybrid (which I hate) said the faces of the 5 would be revealed to the chosen one in the temple. Baltar never saw the faces, so either that puts into question everything the hybrid has said, or Baltar isn’t the chosen one at all.

  97. Atersolitas says:

    Carol, thanks – I thought that 6 had told Baltar, but my faulty memory thought it was Head 6, not Caprica 6. Does anybody else know if anybody besides Adama, Baltar and the Cylons know about there being 12 models? I would assume that Adama told Roslin and maybe Tigh, but I don’t know if there has ever been any explicit mention besides Baltar asking the Cylons about it.

    Sween, I doubt it’s common practice to use the experimenter’s own genetic material for testing purposes, but I think he might use his own in this case. The reason being that at the time he certainly thought he was human, and given that anybody might be a Cylon, he might operate under the assumption that the only genetic material he could trust to be human would be his own.

  98. Pike says:

    “…I doubt it’s common practice to use the experimenter’s own genetic material for testing purposes…”

    It’s actually really common. Ease of access, no consent forms, etc.

  99. Jay says:

    If I remember the episode with the Cylon detector correctly, Baltar did test himself but they didn’t show the result on screen. The only positive result we saw was Bommer but Baltar changed that to human pretty fast.

  100. GAIUSISGOD says:

    rich and co kudos i think youve got a good part down
    Gaius cannot be killed. He is the chosen one. When has “inner six” ever been wrong? Gaius has knowledge he cannot have. Gaius is not a cyclon. Gaius is the chosen one. Gaius is the only one who will live to see earth. That means gaius must be “god” or the “one whos name must not be spoken”. RDM worked on DS9 if im not confused. Could this all end as part of dr baltars insanity on modern day earth as the parallel Sisko ep? will that curveball come so long as its renewed? Or is Gaius really the “human ” chosen one as Kyra will most likely (though not this season despite rumors) be the ‘cyclon’ chosen one?
    And Gaius furthermore isnt guilty at this trial. This trial is not about Caprica nor is it about the nuke. Its about New Caprica. His army committed treason when Adama ran. He never gave the order. They left him with no way to fight the cyclons. The abandoned their duty. He was willing to die til they shoot Caprica 6 and remind him that he wont come back. He asks how they can be trusted and they say you have no choice. This is the one instance where a character i love and relate to immensly really does have the moral high ground. Because of this he will argue it well.
    Nontheless he is the chosen one. So he has to live. To make Inner Six be wrong now would shoot holes in the whole series. He is the chosen one among the humans because he is (as the title says) the “instruement of God”. He alone can save humanity. What would be a cool twist is if Kara wasnt a cyclkon rosilyn was, but thats asking too much.
    But the story of Baltar is aboput one of destiny and redemption. Or its one about flawed writing. How can 6 have been so right before and wrong now? How else can Baltar know what cannot be known. He cant be a cyclon. She told him. He must be the chosen one. She told him.
    Lame Matrix esque-werent ready yet BS aside that is.

  101. Rendar says:

    It’s Roslin. She’s the cylon. It would be so perfect and would explain Deanna’s reaction when seeing the final 5

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