November 10, 2006
GWC Podcast #15
“A Measure of Salvation” left us wondering how so many “coincidences” could really come to pass in one show. Highlights: Roslin’s mean streak, Baltar’s torture “escape,” Helo’s future, the “new” Lee, and the merits of having your own pet centurion.
Galactic Watercooler 
Modern Geek 
Save Eureka 
Eff This Week 
FitSmart
First post here, a bit daunting having the first comment. I’ve fallen in love with your podcasts, though, and I thought this might be important. (Note I’m 21 minutes into the podcast, so I’m still early, and if you guys talked about this I apologize… and hopefully I’m not posting incorrectly…)
I am getting a massive messiah streak from Baltar. From his saying “believe in me” and “I love you,” to his being in white robes and being guided by an “angel”…
Long theory short, at the end of Season 1 (I haven’t seen season 2 yet, unfortunately, I’m trying to catch up), Baltar was being led to believe that he was the prophesied leader, to lead them to Earth. And now.. he’s becoming that, for the Cylons. Just listen to what he’s really saying, and how he’s going about it…
Oh, and the biological weapon is pretty much useless now. Why? Because D’anna holds the cure.. A cure handed to her by Baltar, who also handed her love… See how all this starts to layer?
What’s going to cause trouble is if Baltar starts buying into it, and his ego runs away with him… And he truly believes that he is the messiah and the leader of the Cylons. Then, all of a sudden, you have the Cylons being led by a man who knows the fleet inside and out, who knows how to get to Earth, and who is being guided by some force..
Well, I enjoyed the episode.
You’d think they could have written it, though, so that the Colonials decide not to use it, but something happens to confirm the Cylons’ belief that the Colonials are indeed trying to exterminate them with a bioweapon, so that they become even more rabidly kill-all-humans.
I’m surprised they didn’t take that opportunity; my assumption was that they were always looking to maximize the extent that the Colonials (or at least the main characters) be in the worst possible situation.
Was saboteur Helo in the CIC being an XO during the attack?
Maybe this feeling will go away, but I think I was feeling disappointed with this episode. It was dangerously close to falling into the “Trek” formula of nothing bad happening to the good guys/reset button at the end of the episode. Having Athena conveniently immune to the virus was not done well. They could have atleast had her immunity be the key to a cure beyond the innoculations proposed by the doctor. Also, no apparent consequence for Hilo’s actions? Hopefully that will come back to haunt him later.
I have faith in the writers that the events in this episode have some effect on the future of the story, but it doesn’t seem that way now.
Mark
Has BSG jumped the shark? I must agree with Mark. This episode overall seemed to miss the mark somehow. It seemed to me a lot like the episode where Starbuck shots Lee in the bar/hostage situation back in season 2 (or was it season 1…).
Baltar IS the cylon god. Gotta be.
And remeber that character “Lucifer” from the old series? Is Baltar’s head Six his Lucifer?
We see in A Measure of Salvation there was some surprise when the Cylon told his interrogators that Baltar was still alive. I made a post before questioning the legality of Zarek’s and now Roslin’s Presidency, saying that we never saw Baltar removed from office officially. I think my theory now has more validly to it.
I may be making a null point, because know at any time Baltar could in theory be removed from office and the whole Zarek/Roslin agreement can be redone. However even in this episode Adama makes the comment about not being able to use bio weapons without a direct presidential order, and technically she is not the legal president.
If you follow my logic, Baltar was never officially removed nor did he die. That means Zarek was never the president legally, and thus in no position to appoint a Vice President. When means Laura Roslin in still just a school teacher. Now I don’t predict BSG ever making this point, but I personally find it interesting.
A quick thought about the concept of Athena being immune to the Virus from the last episode. If she is, and she dies and resurrects on a resurrection ship; will she carry the anti-bodies back with her? If so would the Cylon(S) be able to use that as a cure? It’s just a thought.
On a side note, I loved the quote from Sneakers “Be a beacon.†Was thinking it when I heard you guys say it. Its one of my favorite movies, great pod cast guys.
An odd thought to break up a serious discussion: What would happen if one of the hybrids developed Turrets syndrome? One wicked Cylon swearing machine!
I’m still thinking this is a weak episode. It certainly does feel like they’re trying to cram too much in. There was much less of that “hang time” (where the shot carries on after the action has ended.) I suspect that they’re trying create an entry point for new audiences, so that they’re able to follow without having seen the previous episodes.
Oh, and CGI errors happen all the time. There often just isn’t time or money enough to fix them. Galactica’s landing pods are often in the wrong position. Viper 1104 was destroyed twice at the Battle of Ragnar, before being successfully landed by Starbuck. You get the idea.
So I have a question about “Measure of Salvation.” When Roslin and Adama are discussing the virus at the end of the episode, Adama says, “It was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon we abandoned on the sick bay ship…” But then in the same scene, a few second later, he says, “the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3,000 years ago, right around the time the 13th colony left Kobol.” And Roslin says, “That beacon was a sign post to earth.” So…unless I missed something huge about that beacon, I’m left wondering what it really was, and who left it? Is it something jettisoned by the fleet and mistaken by the Cylons to be from the 13th colony?
Random thoughts in no particular order
Number Three… She really stood out to me in this episode. Of all the Cylon (zzz) she holds the most contempt for humans and is the most focused on their eradication. Just like the good old days when they knocked out 20 billion in one fell swoop. She was not happy to see Caprica Six and Boomer become the hero of the Cylon and their plan to try to co-exist with humanity. Since then she has commented on several occasions about how easy it used to be to come to a consensus and now they find themselves frequently split. After her internal crisis of faith was resolved by the Oracle’s fulfilled prediction of finding true love with Hera, she has been the driving force among the Cylon. The more we see the way she has been driving things recently, the more I think she is making a power play to get the seven models back on a single path, her path. It was mentioned that Baltar had a messianic quality to him during the torture but I got the feeling she viewed herself as a messiah. When Baltar is saying “I believe in you!†and “I love you with all my heart.†that look on her face went along way with me that she found a kind a spiritual validation there and is the one to get the Cylon all back on the same page and lead them. I also think the way she views Baltar has definitely changed. He was at best a tool to be used before the torture but now I’m not sure what he is to her. Sign from God? Her first worshipper? We’ll have to wait and see.
Lee’s evil twin. I almost felt like Lee was taking over Tigh’s role since he was off camera this episode. This was not the guy who has constantly put himself in jeopardy to “do the right thingâ€. I’m not even sure I’m criticizing the writers since off all the people meeting with Laura (Lee, Adama, Helo) he was the most likely to voice the ‘kill em all and let the gods sort it out’ attitude but it’s not in keeping with how I’ve see his morals developed over the course of the show.
Gotta love Doc Cottle asking for prisoners, “How many have you got?†He never ceases to crack me up.
I like the way they showed Caprica Six’s pain at seeing Baltar tortured. She seems to be backtracking from a couple of shows ago when she said her feelings for him were a mistake. If she starts swinging back to destroying the humans is a sin in the eyes of God, I see conflict with her and Three.
Helo and Sharon… I love Sharon’s resolve to keep her word and show that she’s truly different than the image that most humans have of the evil cylons. I’m leaning towards the position that even when they find out that Hera is alive she will keep her word. Don’t get me wrong there will conflict over this. I’m going to have to go back and check but I really think Adam was out of the loop when Hera was finally given away. There is going to be anger when they do finally find out that she’s alive but I’m not sure it is going to be directed at him.
As always great podcast and I look forward to hearing the next.
Slingshot out
At one point, I think Six told Baltar that the difference between humans and the Cylon(s) is that humans kill each other… and toasters don’t.
Another difference is that the Cylonies can’t reproduce.
But now Six has kill a Three, and Sharon has had a baby, and in both cases, the difference is love. It can be argued that their respective love experiences made them more human.
Both Leoben (with Starbuck) and Three (now with Baltar) are driven to distraction by the longing for love as well. Love both makes them fulfilled and makes them more human.
Stupid toasters. What they’re starting to finally learn is that love is what makes us humans miserable. Look at all the ridiculous things that the Colonials do for love… and see how stingy Adama, the man in charge, has to be when it comes to his love for his son…
It seems that love is both the source of humanity, and the need for love is the source of all conflict.
Of course you can say that humanity is both the source of love and conflict.
Cylon evolution, when I thought about it; even back after the mini-series I never pictured “toasters†making “skin jobs†that were superior. If you go back to the start of this season, Adama tells Lee (back when he was still a Commander) that the centurions can’t tell the human looking models apart. Saying something to the effect that they did not want there own machine revolt on there hands. So we can possibly deduct that the current centurions were designed by the skin jobs, and made as a stronger but dummied down version of the first centurions.
So what if during the first war, the centurions (the one you see as a model during the mini-series) were all sentient and on a mental level close to the skin jobs. Then after the first war when they find a home of there own, they begin to evolve; such as taking human form, figuring out the types of models, and so forth while they figure out how to make wetware.
Another idea, if you go back the original series, there were other Cylons that were in charge of the Centurions, such as Lucifer. If you assume that the Cylons models that were in the old show at one time existed in the history of the current show. Then maybe the point could be made that there were several, (maybe even 7 or 12) pure machine models that were the brains of the operation; commanding the base stars and planning the next 12 wetware models.
Maybe too simple for the show, but I think it is plausible.
Rich – I was quite confused by the ending as well- I think it was Adama’s odd wording. After a long discussion with the episode on “pause” at the end, we decided the beacon was left by the thirteenth colony and contaminated unwittingly at that time by one of the colonists. It was never intended to be a weapon. Then when Galactica’s crew found it, they abandoned it on the “sick base ship” – the one that has just been destroyed by the ancient dwelling disease.
Cavatar – Glad you liked the “Sneakers” reference. *grin* We try not to be too esoteric, but our favorite movies do creep in.
Right before the Galactica returned to New Caprica, D’anna Biers and Baltar talked about the Cylons leaving New Caprica. She played out a scenario of what would happen, and it ended with the Humans generations later returning to destroy the Cylons. So it is oblivious the Cylons think that they need to kill all the Humans, or at least control the few that are left to ensure there own survival. (Let us not forget that is exactly what the Cylons did to Humans 40 years after the first war had ended.)
Laura Roslin feels that this is the case also. So she in turn feels for Humans to survive, all the Cylons must also be destroyed.
I am sure I don’t need to spell out the cycle here. If each side feels they need to kill every member of a race to survive, then for one to survive they need to destroy each living being of there enemy. Does that make Roslin right? When watching the episode I agreed with Admiral Adama, but now I am not so sure.
Cavatar
Well first of all, I gotta say i love this podcast, I was looking for a second podcast to listen after the RDM Podcast of Exodus Pt. 2 and found you guys, and haven’t stopped religiously listening to it, it’s great, I’m addicted, I’m hooked.
On that note I wanted to comment on the fact that i actually liked this episode even more than “Torn”, I think its because there was more suspense, there was something actually happening, and most importantly, its the first time the Simon model says something differtent from “Where’s Galactica?” or “I agree” since the episode “The Farm” (OK i know he was all “NO ONE CAN STOP THE VIRUS!” on the last episode, but I actually saw some personality in this episode) and I’m really glad to see that this model is the more intellectual and less action-oriented of all the seven known models, and thats what differentiates it from the others.
The only thing that bothered me from this episode is that the discussion of the identity of the five remaining models is again gone. For obvious reasons Baltar couldn’t ask, but at least someone should ask Athena if she knows who they are (I don’t care if she start saying things like “Well, I was busy during the whole breeding experiment on Caprica so I didn’t had a chance to know them well”, but I want to see someone ask her on an episode). This kinda reminds me of the glowing spine disscusion that actually died after the first season, so I never had a chance to prove a theory I had about how that only happened when a female Cylon is impregnated (which would have meant that Caprica Six was pregnant and the baby got killed in the Lake house explosion of the Miniseries). But enough geek-talk, I just wanted to use this post to not only express my Battlestar Galactica love, but to again congratulate you on what is to me the best Battlestar Galactica podcast out there (RDM is actually commentary, so that doesn’t count). OK I believe this is all I wanted to say. Good Luck.
Quick question:
In this episode, we see yet again the power of Baltar’s imaginary/implanted/angel Six. So I’ve got to wonder, where the heck is Caprica’s imaginary/implanted/angel Baltar (that we’ve only seen in Downloaded), and what influence has he had on Caprica Six during the real Baltar’s imprisonment? Is Imaginary Baltar shocked at the torture of Real Baltar and advocating for him, in the same way that Imaginary Six was so empathetic towards the captive, tortured Six on Pegasus?
Dave, nice catch on the parallel torture scenarios. I’ve also wondered about where head Baltar had been. She probably needed him to get through four months of living with the real thing. 🙂 But seriously we are a little overdue for an appearance from him. The way Caprica Six seems conflicted between her feelings for Baltar and her decision that those feeling were a mistake I’d seriously expect a head Baltar appearance soon to deal with this on screen.
Hey guys, I know I’m a little late on the hole Continuity error on Lee’s rank on the Viper that it said Major instead of Commander.
If you will go back to “A Captains Hand and Lay Down Your Burdens Part 1 & 2†from season 2, Lee became Commander in Captains Hand and never flew a Viper after that and Kara became the CAG she planned the rescue mission on Caprica. So when we last saw Lee flying a Viper his rank was Major. Then Commander Fat Lee couldn’t fit in his flight suit let alone a Viper cockpit. So when Lee finally slimed down enough to fly a Viper it had his old rank Major on it.
You do not get demoted unless you’ve had a Military Court Martial, Which is just a Military Court. I do not think if Lee had a court martial they’d let the fans miss it. So he should still be a Commander even if he’s flying Vipers.
However in “A Measure of Salvation,” he is a Marine and shows no rank at all. But as I looked back on pervious episode with Marines (Not Viper Jocks acting as Marines) they do not where ranks. If I am wrong please correct me. Oh and the hole Three Balter thing is just disturbing.
Excuse me for the double post I tried to avoid it…..but failed.
Random Theory highly unlikely:
Did anyone else feel that when Athena/Sharon put her hand in the Cylon Basestar gooey computer mainframe thingy and had that shocked look on her face and Hotdog said, “Athena you okay?†Athena still with a puzzled/shocked look on her face, “Yeah fine†that she received all data communication that went from basestar to basestar of the cylon fleet and she found data on Hira. However, she won’t tell Helo/Karl because she’s afraid he’ll do something drastic and she’ll end up losing him and her freedom that she’s earned. I’m sorry if anyone posted something like this or its been covered. I’m finishing midterms so I’m catching up on the podcasts & posts.
GALACTIA MYTH, that is not always the case in the real world military. There have been plenty of times in the service where a “Field Commission†is issued and then after a time it is later canceled; thus the officer or enlisted soldier returns to there former grade. My stepfather has told me about plenty of men he served with as a Marine in Vietnam that were given Lieutenant and Captain Field Commissions, only to be reduced to Sergeants when we pulled our troops out. A second source for this a Supervisor that I work with. Him and I before and after the shift we run have talked about the 20 years he spent as a Marine, and he knows of cases where officers have both lost and kept there Field Commissions.
One could argue, that his promotion to Major was a normal issued Commission signed by the command authority, and that his promotion to Commander was a Field Commission. That would explain why he lost it when the Pegasus was destroyed, and it would fit with military tradition.
I’ve been mulling over the expression on D’Anna’s face when Baltar goes through the whole “I love you bit” and I had a thought go through my mind I wanted to share.
Cylons are monotheistic and although I’m not sure, I bet they have some sort of Cyclon New Testament somewhere. The look on D’Anna’s face could be interpreted in this manner.
Cylon bible says there will be a great plague but fear not for God will send a savior. He will express his love even in the most dire of pain. D’Anna hears Baltar say the magic words and stops the torture to call up her Cylon Bible subroutine.
Baltar’s life is spared (again) and he’s given one chance to prove himself… find a cure.
Baltar begins studying the virus, determines it’s easily cured, remembers the Baby Blood(tm) (mmmm baby blood) and creates a vaccine/cure. However, in true Baltar fashion, he leaves out the part about how simple the disease is to cure, shows off his miracle drug, cures some Cylons, and *poof* he’s the Messiah.
Love the podcast by the way, I’m a recent subscriber and greatly enjoy the banter on my way to work in the morning.
Quick note that may be of some help in the future: in Television Without Pity parlance Sharon and Helo’s baby is known as the “cybrid.” Just sayin’.
I must say that I am very much let down by this episode. It seems that the writers have taken the easy way out with the whole genocide thing. I think they should absolutely carried out the plan, and I think had they actually carried the plan out, it still would not have been Genocide. (But it definately would have made things more interesting) While highly effective against civilian population centers, the military effectiveness of chemical and biological weapons tends to be overstated. Yes, their effects can be significant, but they are generally not the “head shot” everybody expects them to be. Countermeasures/chemical suits limit exposure to the military and quarentines keep biological attacks from being 100% effective. Let’s say that the plan was carried out and the infected cylons resurrect on the resurrection ship, at that point wouldn’t they just say “Hey, we’re infected” and self-destruct the resurrection ship in order prevent further spread of the disease? The Genocidal attack would have failed, the cylons would be out their resurrection ship, and the humans would be guilty of having done everything in their power to attempt a Genocide. The fact that they failed would be their only “Measure of salvation” Even if bioattack was completely successful and wiped out the entire cylon fleet, it would be limited to the fleet persuing Galactica, not the entire cylon race. What about the cylons still on the cylon homeworld? What about the other 5 models of cylons that they don’t talk about? Those would be unaffected. It also strikes me that Adama could rid the fleet of any remaining undercover models within the fleet by exposing every ship in the fleet to the disease and then see who gets sick.
A couple of points for discussion,
Are the centurions also reponsible for all maintenance and production reponsibilities, or are there repair droids that we have not seen yet.
Battlefield promotion: The tradiotion is designed for the pressures of the battlefiled to maintain the chain of command or keep experienced personnel in important positions. For example, General Custer was actually a major at little big horn. He was a general for the Civil War and reverted back for service after the gib war.
Wireless net: Notice how dianna summoned the centurions to menace/transport baltar with out word or action. This implies some sort of wireless connection. I assume this is the same communication band that the raiders use to coordinate action and communicate. Could the Hybrid’s be a queen that corrdinate all centurion action. Is this why all the centurions go down when the hybrid went down?
Here’s the thing with the Virus. The fleet should let the cylons know they have an infected cylon on board. Thus, taking out the Battlestar with a resurection ship nearby would cause the death of the cylon race. And none of the cylons would want to engage the human fleet without a resurrection ship nearby. Mutually assured destruction.
Just wanted to let you know that Podcast #15 has still not shown up on iTunes, so those who get your podcast through iTunes may still not know that it is out there!
Wow; a lot going on in this episode, and it was hard staying unspoiled ’til we had time to watch it.
I believe Athena totally set the self-destruct on the stricken base star. I got palpable vibes of sympathy, distress and kinship from her as she interacted with the sick Cylons. Couple that with she was the one actually interfacing with the ship’s systems while the ship’s own crew appeared incapable of standing up long enough to do so, and I think Athena gave them a Coup de Grâce. To me, her expression on the Raptor as the others reacted to the explosion reeked of challenging someone to say something about it. I also think the timing was far too convenient: timed to happen after everyone was safely off the ship.
Yeah, methinks there’s a whole lot of the Cylon in her, for all she seemed okay with kissing the lot of them off.
As to the hot button of the episode: to commit genocide or no? I’m all about Roslin on this one. See, to my mind, the very fact that my race exists and I’m motivated to maintain its existence is all I need to know to insure said existence is worth preserving. When it comes to acting for my species’ survival, my point of view on that issue is the only one that matters, and it says do whatever is necessary to prevent would-be enemies (or whatevers) from threatening said survival. Do I want my race to survive? Yes. Then it deserves to. It’s that simple to me. Of course I’d prefer actions that guarantee species survival that don’t come burdened with moral problems, and if “cleaner” methods are open to me I’ll give them all due preference–but if the only options left to me are mired in moral dilemmas…oh, well. I’ll never support letting my species wink out of existence over something as intangible as morality. For anything less than species survival I’d probably be open to some wavering on that point, but when it’s the whole enchilada? Airlock ’em all if that’s what it takes.
If I were a Colonial, my experience thus far would tell me the Cylons are a threat to my survival and that the only way to convince them not to be such a threat is to kill them before they have a chance to realize said threat. As a “race” (insert preferred group term as desired) they represent a lot of such threats, so my chances of survival increase as the number of threats decrease. If there’s some point short of “all of them” that would give the same result (my survival), well, that remains to be seen. If “all of them” is the only point where my survival becomes assured, so be it.
And that’s pretty much the end of my take on it; I suspect that’s where Roslin’s character was coming from and when she proclaimed the Cylon should no longer exist I cheered inside. You go, grrl!
Helo has a right to his own perspective, and I grant he had a right to express his views and to protest based on his beliefs. Where he crossed the line in my book was actively thwarting the purposes of his military superiors because of those beliefs. Recuse himself, ask to be relieved, refuse to take part in the operation, all those are what I’d agree were valid responses. Gross dereliction of duty, on the other hand, is not. When he took his dog tags off I felt a little better (it was obvious to me he was about to do something to thwart the mission) because I took it as a sign he was resigning his commission before acting. I don’t necessarily fault his doing what he believed in so strongly, I fault him for doing it while duty-bound as an officer, and that he got away with it with his rank and position still intact (unless Adama does something about that in the future, of which I’m doubtful). Using his dog tags, symbols of his duty to something greater than himself and his beliefs, was to me a desecration that I’m very uncomfortable with. Bear in mind I’m speaking as a retired officer in the US military and maybe where I’m coming from here will make more sense.
As an episode overall this one felt way too much like a “reset.” The ending was too pat, too tidy, and the characters seemed all too easily put back into their old roles. I echo the sentiment that Starbuck back in the saddle was WAY too soon, and we as viewers are owed a LOT of explanation and drama before they should be allowed to do that with her. How would I have ended this? Well, Helo would have committed his act of objection, but it would have happened too late and some of the dead Cylon prisoners would still have downloaded. The result would be mass consternation and death in the Cylon ranks, but in the end they would have contained the outbreak with their numbers reduced–the characters would have all committed their various acts of moral ambiguity but in the end it would come to naught. The Cylons would still be a threat, but an altered one (and angry to boot), while the characters would have to deal with the aftermath of what they brought themselves to do–all of them (that means Helo, too). Loads of fodder for BSG-style angst and no “magic reset button” at episode’s end to make things tidy.
An amazing podcast once again! Kudos! I don’t know how you did it, but somehow you pulled off a really good podcast from a -terrible- episode.
But nevertheless, good work!
I think the genocide argument is the great question to tackle from this episode. I disagree with NY Spinny on at least one point. Just because one person in a group believes genocide is the only option doesn’t give that person the right to pursue genocide.
There are always going to be ‘exceptional circumstances’ that, at the time seem to justify extreme measures. This has happened before in this country. I’m thinking of the imprisonment in camps of Japanese Americans during WWII. At the time people thought that it was justified, but now we see it was a mistake and a ‘stain on our shield’.
I can totally understand why Roslin gave the order. She lived under the occupation and knows the threat as well as anyone. The issue is to save humanity after all. I believe Helo had the same thoughts when he stopped the plan. If they would have went genocidal, they would have lived, but something of humanity would have died. In the end, Helo saved humanity.
There is more than one way to survive as a species.
Alice: Thanks for the heads-up. I pinged them again, so hopefully they’ll pick it up soon. I wonder if maybe iTunes has been “slowed down” as they took a long time this week approving another podcast I work on. Hmmm.
Holly: Good to find you guys, too. Welcome!
All: Excellent discussion! I think I’m going to put together a “comment roundup” post today or tomorrow to make sure all the newcomers find your great work…
Cavatar: Thanks for pointing that out, I forgot to mention Field Commissions but that would also make Lee drop from Major since I assumed from “Captains Hand” that, that promotion was a field commission since he was only promoted to keep an eye on Kara and the Pegasus so Admiral Adama could have more Galactica eyes on the ship. I believe the promotion to Commander was official since Adama thought that his previous promotions on the Pegasus was to avoid problems brew on board and that he admitted this to Lee as he was promoting him and Adama told Lee to make him proud for he EARNED it.
Spencer: wow wireless, that’s great. I noticed it seen it over and over, but I overlooked it. I think it is just because I’ve become so accustomed to them operating this way. Me thinks to look into this more
I’m confident this issue will be resolved in the next episode.(Hopefully)
But if I’m the one with the charge of keeping what’s left of humanity safe from extinction at the hands of the Cylon(s), then the fact I see “genocide” (or taking action that might result in such a thing) as a Good Thing if it’s going to eliminate all (or even most) of what I see as the threat to my species. That’s the essence of my point: I’m totally on board with Roslin’s decision.
If it’s us or them, then by damn it should be them; I can’t conceive of a mindset that permits one to eschew a weapon that might mean survival of my species when without it that survival can be called into question. There’s no such thing as “fair play” under those conditions. Nothing in the experience of what’s left of humanity indicates they’ll be safe under any circumstances other than removal of the Cylon(s) as a threat.
No, I don’t believe it’s better for a species to let itself be killed off simply because the path to survival is a thorny one. There was no other decision Roslin could have made; it would be akin to treason against all of humanity to allow a single option for increased chance of survival to pass by.
So there! 😉
NY Spinny:
I can totally see your argument: If it’s all of us or all of them, then I’m totally down with it being all of *them*.
The thing that continues to worry me a bit is that every “pro genocide” argument I’ve seen relies on a strict binary “we all die or they all die” situation, and I’m not entirely convinced the available options are so limited. If they can be coerced — as Simon was this last Friday — then it seems possible to me for the colonials to win the war without killing every last Cylon.
Moreover, if the situation really *is* us or them, I’d like to understand why. History seems to deny me the comfort of the only arguments along those lines I’ve seen: that “the Cylons broke treaties before” and that “they tried to kill all of us.” It seems to me that we could say the first about pretty much any enemy in history, yet almost all of them were tamed eventually — and some even changed totally in ideology over time. The second argument seems to hinge more on their ability to do it — and their ability to do it before convinced (through force) to do otherwise — than on their current desire to do so.
The one exception to this rule would be the argument that Cylons aren’t sentient and are programmed only to destroy. But while I can respect the idea, I can’t really get behind it. They “have a plan” after all, and that pretty much rules out non-sentience in my book.
Also, it seems to me that one’s survival is always called into question in war — yet even in those “hightened” circumstances we respect standards of “fair play” ranging from the Geneva convention to not experimenting on civilians (enemies or otherwise) with biological weapons, etc. I can think of many options for increased chance of survival that might not be worth the moral cost. Of course, my opinion on this isn’t the only one in this matter by any stretch, and there are libraries full of discourse on the waging of war.
FWIW, after re-reading all the comments for my latest post I’m pretty convinced that Lee’s “plan” wouldn’t have really killed all Cylons anyway, so it seems to me to be a pretty decent plan — as an “attack” instead of “genocide.”
Awesome comment, BTW, regarding Helo’s actions during the attack. I’m totally with you there, and I think you expressed it more succinctly than I could have!
Chuck
In the previews for next week, has anyone noticed when Adama and Tigh talking to each other? It is not the Galactica CIC, and Adama is wearing a Commander insignia, is this a flashback from before the attack? I had to freeze frame it, but with POW guy. It has to be a flashback.
Cavatar
Yes, Chuck, I do agree that if another option (short of wiping out the Cylon(s)) were to present itself then keeping the moral high ground (assuming that’s important) would dictate exploring it first. I’m trying to express the situation they were in, not in the terms of a viewer who has some degree of omniscience as compared to the characters, but in the terms of what Roslin knows as a character. To me, keeping that perspective limits the options in a very stark manner. Her being witness to the near-genocide of humanity, followed by experiencing the fruits of trying to “cohabit” with the Cylons on a large scale, do not in my view paint an inspiring picture of being able to remove the Cylon(s) as a threat through any means short of violence. Now give her what appears to be a golden opportunity to visit that violence on them in a wholesale manner that limits human risk and loss of life, and to me she’d have been insane not to have taken the course she did.
On the term “genocide” itself, in this case, it occurred to me that it might not apply to the Cylon(s) in a strict sense. Think about it: the term was first coined to describe what the Nazis tried to do to the Jews. The attempted extermination was visited on any and all of them: men, women, children, with no regard to their status as combatent or no. Now, consider the Cylon(s): THERE ARE NO NON-COMBATENTS. One hundred per cent of them are directly involved in the attack on and subsequent pursuit of Humanity, so far as we know. Put it in a different way: let’s say all of the remaining Cylon(s) are housed on four remaining base stars. Now, the Galactica comes up with a new missile, perfect intelligence, and a novel battle plan that will insure she can engage and destroy all four base stars in battle. Should she not do so, because that would kill all of the enemy? It’d be the same effect as doing so via biological warfare. There are no innocents in the Cylon ranks, and so far as the Colonials know the only way to survive is to defeat all of the enemy forces. Those enemy forces just happen to comprise 100% of the known members of their species. Do you refuse to engage and kill enemy soldiers simply because that’s all that exists? How can you ever hope to achieve military victory if you’re not permitted to engage and kill enemy soldiers for fear of eliminating all of them? Isn’t that the point in military terms?
In sum, I believe the term “genocide” isn’t a perfect fit to this situation, and colors the perspective with shades that really don’t apply to the Cylon(s).
I’ll repeat my earlier opinion: I would have let Helo’s actions have been in vain, have them attempt the “genocide” and then have the plan fail (it’s been pointed out numerous times how prone to failure it would have been). Now everyone’s “soiled” with their particular actions, and they don’t have total victory as a salve. That’s the kind of BSG angst I know and love! 😉
Nice pickup Cavatar! I had to look and go back myself after reading your post and as far as I can tell you’re dead on there. Should be exciting to see!
I reposted my opinions on “genocide” itself over at the “Genocide: What is it good for?” thread since that can O worms seems more appropriately opened there.
I agree with Audra and others where this episode seems like it was trying to cover too much ground. In my opinion it seems like they are starting to take too many short cuts to try to wedge in the plot elements they need in each episode. This feeling is strengthened by listening to Ron Moore’s comments for this episode where he points out areas where they cut stuff out. like cutting a scene which explained how Helo was free to not be on the CIC while sabotaging the holding cell because he had asked to be relieved from duty during the “genocide”. Another example that was also mentioned in this podcast was how Sharon’s immunity was explained. It felt too pat and abrupt. Ron Moore even said that would be a valid criticism. There were some strong scenes in this episode, particularily the Baltar torture scene, but in general I think this was a weak episode from a story standpoint. It seemed more like bullet points, than narrative.
Is it just me or does it look like the lone black guy from the Thompson Twins is the guest star in next weeks episode? I always wondered what happened to that guy. Guess the Cylon(zz) got em.
Rob-
I agree completely. From listening to the RDM podcast it sounds as if even the “genocide” theme was almost an afterthought. Especially considering, as some posters pointed out, it wouldn’t really have worked as genocide. The last episode, Torn, seemed a little jumbled as well. There was enough cool content to make up for it at the time, but AMoS sort of dimmed some of the coolness from it (beacon and disease pretty much neutralized)
The Baltar scenes were the only really good/interesting parts. I guess they can’t all be home runs…
Wow. Forty comments. You guys have come a long way in a very short time. Congrats!
Ken, even RDM said something to the effect of “this epsisode makes me like the previous one less.”
I’ve been secretly listening to your pod casts for a while now (although for some reason the damn thing used to crash my ipod while using it in my car) … listening to this week’s podcast got me to thinking. One of you guys mentioned the glowing of the back when the Cylons were having sex. Now I’m a true BG geek (and you’ll know that for sure by this next statement), but I think I’ve only seen that effect twice. Once when Caprica was doing it with Baltar in the mini-series, and then again when Athena was doing it with Helo on the planet. Now, what if the glowing back has more to do with impregnation than it has to do with orgasm? I mean don’t we have a 50/50 shot of that being true? It would also explain Caprica’s obsession with Baltar, as well as why she was so depressed after being downloaded (not sure if I’m buying the whole guilt thing … especially after this season.)
Also you guys keep mentioning the fact that Adama knew that Athena and Helo’s baby was taken from them … I never saw that. I went back and watched the episodes, and still nothing.
And also after your podcast I got to thinking about what the frack was up with the faux-human cylons and how the toasters created them. I remember the mini-series saying something like “the cylons were created to serve man.†I thought that was hella interesting after listening to your comments about how it was hard to take a leap of faith to believe that the cylon created the faux-human, but then I thought, how genius is it really?! If the cylons were programmed to serve humans, how fitting was it that they created a faux-human who’s programming forwarded them to destroy and replace humans? In other words they needed the skin jobs to replace the only thing they lost in their war with the humans … humans! Humans were part of their purpose … just food for thought.
eric-michael – I’m with you on the glowing back thing. We actually did talk about that in one of the first few podcasts – pointing out that both times we see the glowing backs it can be related to a pregnancy. Actually, the same pregnancy, but either way.
There’s been a lot of debate about whether or not Adama knows what happened to Hera/Isis (Sharon’s baby). We had assumed for a while he did know, but a lot of people have commented on the site that he does not know, so we’re still unsure.
I don’t remember the show ever specifying that the CylonZ were created to “serve” humans, but I think it’s a reasonable assumption. And it’s a great point that maybe CylonZ were trying to create humans since humanity seems to be an importantpart of their religion and/or destiny.